#13: Christian Unity and Politics

Dr. Smith:
Welcome to Peculiar People, a podcast where we think about what does it mean to be a follower of Jesus Christ in our present age? How are we distinct in our thinking and how are we mostly distinct in reflecting a life that shows that Jesus Christ is Lord? We are blessed today to have Pastor Joel Carwile with us. He is the pastor of the First Baptist Church of Athens, Alabama. I’m excited to talk to him about Christians and political engagement. This discussion will be based on a tweet I read that he posted last month, and we are excited to begin this discussion.

Dr. Smith:
Pastor Carwile, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Carwile:
Hey, Brother, it’s my joy. I followed you a long time, my man, and I’m so grateful to be here today.

Dr. Smith:
Well, Pastor, I appreciate your time this morning. Peculiar People is really focused on encouraging Christians, what does it look like to live the way that Peter said, as a holy nation, a chosen generation of peculiar people? What does that look like in our present age, strangers and foreigners, because sometimes I think that’s not always the predominant tone expressed in American Christianity, and I want to target our present generation. I think if you do a historical look, there’s often been times when that hasn’t just necessarily been the tone of American Christianity.

Dr. Smith:
But before we get to the question, I just wanted to give you an opportunity to share your testimony and your background because this conversation is for pastors and Christians, and so I just like them to know, look, this conversation is with a fellow brother in Christ, not just a talking head. So why don’t you share how became a follower of Jesus Christ?

Dr. Carwile:
Well, Doc, I appreciate that opportunity. I remember when you were over at High View when I was serving in Louisville, and so man, I’ve loved you for a long time, Brother. I’m so excited to hear about your position there in the northeast. I followed you on social media for several years now, and I love your tone. I love how you try to take issues of the day and bring it to the forefront. If all of us think … If we would all think a little bit more instead of being biased and having our own way based upon thoughts of the past and that type of thing but to answer your question, I had a very godly mom that didn’t ask me if I wanted to go to church. She said you’re going to church, and so my baby sister and I went to little Shanghai Baptist Church when I was a little boy and at eight years of age, I responded to gospel during a revival meeting and gave my life to Christ.

Dr. Carwile:
He gloriously saved me and as of now, just celebrated my 56th birthday, I thought, my goodness, what all have I been spared and what all have I been protected from also with godly mother and as I began to sort of matriculate through school and those types of things, I felt God call on my life to be a pastor/evangelist when I was 17 years old. And so I had aspirations to play college football at Auburn University and the Lord decided that was not the case and so I walked on at the University of North Alabama and played some college football there and did not earn a scholarship there but I was able to sign on a baseball scholarship at Wallace State Junior College in Hanceville, Alabama and Pastor, as you well know, only Jesus can satisfy.

Dr. Smith:
Yes.

Dr. Carwile:
And for me, sports had been that sort of all-in-all. I could just do this or do that, I thought I would be satisfied but sports left me found wanting and so when I finally accepted the call into the ministry, it was what I had been looking for. I sort of went an unorthodox path. I went into the pastorate first before I got my education. All I knew was take my King James version Bible, take a passage of Scripture, exegete it, preach the gospel and people started getting saved. I didn’t know what I was doing. In fact, 31 years later, I still don’t know what I’m doing but what I do know, God’s faithful. If we preach the word and share the gospel, it’ll change people’s lives.

Dr. Carwile:
So, just recently, I celebrated my 31st year in ministry. I’ve been married 27 years to a beautiful young lady by the name of Jo. I have a 14-year-old son, Zeke, and a five-year-old daughter, Danni, that my wife and I delivered in the front seat of the car on the way to the hospital.

Dr. Smith:
Oh my goodness.

Dr. Carwile:
Oh yes, sir. As you know, all those roads and highways in Louisville, we were on our way to the hospital and Jo looks at me and says, “She’s about to drop.” And so I just kept my left hand on the steering wheel and I put my hand down and my baby girl jumped in my hand. So, that’s sort of my claim to fame. [inaudible 00:05:33] University was going to give me an honorary medical [inaudible 00:05:38] degree and I said absolutely not because someone else will expect me to deliver their child and I am one and done, Brother.

Dr. Carwile:
So, eight wonderful years in Louisville and then I had an opportunity, Pastor, to come home-

Dr. Smith:
Amen.

Dr. Carwile:
And Athens, Alabama is my home, where I was born and raised and so here I am at the county seat First Baptist Church. We’ll be 200 years old in August, so I’m excited for the future but what happened in March with the COVID-19 and the pandemic has really been a challenge but I think the issues of the day require these kind of conversations so that pastors can understand that we’re all coming from different backgrounds, different perspectives but our common denominator is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Dr. Carwile:
I’ve been so excited about seeing you on this podcast as well as being able just to have some conversation about what’s going on, Brother, so, that’s a long answer to a short question and I apologize but Jesus has been so good to me and my family and I’m just very grateful [inaudible 00:06:42]

Dr. Smith:
No, I appreciate your answer. I think conversations are better once our listeners kind of know who we’re speaking to and just kind of how the Lord has blessed your life. I certainly value being in Louisville and I think the most complementary thing I can say is that when you would ask another pastor or even another Christian about your church or about you, they would say things like oh that church and that pastor, they are serious about sharing the gospel or they’re serious about evangelism and I think, certainly, it is a joy when a Christian can have that kind of testimony, meaning people associate your life with Acts 1:8.

Dr. Smith:
So, I want to get to something that you tweeted about politics but before I do that, I just want to talk about pastoral ministry in the sense of how a pastor engages disagreement or tensions within his congregation. You and I are Baptist and so we’re in settings where we believe in the affirmation of the congregation, those kind of things.

Dr. Carwile:
Yes, sir.

Dr. Smith:
So, one thing I’ve never done is I’ve never brought any matter to a church gathering or a church meeting that wasn’t already well vetted with the ministry leaders, deacons, Sunday school teachers, whoever are the people and then secondly, I never brought anything to a church meeting that I hadn’t discussed with what I call my zealous people. Some people call them loud-mouth people. You know my zealous people, and then thirdly, I’ve always created an environment where people could say whatever they wanted to say at a church meeting as long as we were seeking to do stuff in love.

Dr. Carwile:
Amen.

Dr. Smith:
And I haven’t always hit this mark but I’ve always shot for like … I need everybody to really want to do this. I’ve always told leaders, even leaders who support me, we’re not doing any 60/40 stuff. We’re probably not even doing any 70/30 stuff. I need people to really want to do what we’re wanting to do because if it’s not something explicitly in the Bible, it’s just not worth dividing the congregation over. So, just kind of at a philosophical level, how have you thought about disagreements where godly people can come to different opinions about things that aren’t specifically laid out in the Scripture?

Dr. Smith:
For example, I’ll give you an example from High View that’s not politics and it wasn’t a third and a third and a third but I always felt like I had to monitor the tensions between my homeschool parents, my Christian school parents and my public school parents.

Dr. Carwile:
Yes, sir.

Dr. Smith:
And then also just reminding those first two, when you say stuff about public schools, don’t forget, we’re a large congregation. There’re teachers and principals in this congregation. “Y’all sending your kids to the devil,” and all that. That’s an example of a nonpolitical kind of tension I had to think about as a pastoral leader. So as a pastor, how have you thought about disagreement and tensions among well-meaning, God-loving people within your congregation?

Dr. Carwile:
Well, I guess the first example, pastor, would be we had a several-hour staff meeting in preparation for our opening and we tried to be as communicative as possible to our church family via social media, sending letters, that type of thing. We’ve done a survey to give our church a voice in what’s going to happen once we come back online. Now, of course, you’ve got a church running 850, 900 people, you’re going to have a lot of different voices that think a lot of different things that need a lot of different [inaudible 00:10:14] and so I basically, up front, said, “Now, guys, I don’t mind you disagreeing with me at all, disagreeing with our staff. I don’t mind you sharing with me a critique or even a constructive criticism. Try not to make it personal but when we’re talking in a staff meeting and I’ve got 15 individuals in there,” I said, “I need to hear from you even if you disagree with me.”

Dr. Carwile:
I know I’m not [inaudible 00:10:40] pastor but for 31 years, I’ve always tried to have an open heart that says it’s okay for you to disagree with me. If I happen to be in the pulpit and I share a text of Scripture that you’ve been taught in a different manner, it’s okay for you to come one-on-one with me. Let’s have a conversation about it. I’ve always tried, as a pastor, to be approachable. I think all of us are given different gifts from God as we relate to people. Some people are extroverted. Some are introverted. Some are combinations of both.

Dr. Carwile:
My personality has always been I’m okay with you disagreeing with me and so I’ve been trying to take that from the business world when I worked in a factory for eight years in management and then transitioned to full-time ministry, I need all of us having input. If you’re sitting in my staff meeting and you’re being quiet, then you’re not helping. I don’t need sycophants, I need individuals who’re going to say, “Pastor, have you thought of it this way?” Or, “Pastor, have you thought of it that way?”

Dr. Carwile:
Now, having said all that, there’ve been some passionate conversations one-on-one with people that were nonpolitical but were about process, that were about philosophy of ministry. Recently, someone sent this to me and I just [inaudible 00:11:56] it says, “You do not have to attend every argument that you’re invited to.” And so, I think, for me, as a pastor of a growing church in a rural North Alabama city, I have to choose my battles wisely and I want everyone to feel like they have a voice.

Dr. Smith:
Yeah.

Dr. Carwile:
And so I think surveys are a good way to do that. I have an open-door policy during the week. My staff knows that I’m available to them. My sweet senior adults know that I’m available to them. So, having said that, I think philosophy of ministry and for young pastors that may listen to this, you’re not always right. You may have prayed. You may have sought Scriptures and whatever but we’re still men with feet of clay. It can have our personal biases that we may bring to a particular situation, so I think just being open and receptive to the ideas of others makes them feel valued.

Dr. Carwile:
Now, you may have to come back as the leader and go, “Hey, that was a great idea but we’re not going to run with that right now. We may never run with that but thank you so much for caring about your church and your community enough to let me know about it.” And so I think my philosophy, at least for 31 years, has worked in context that the Lord has put me in to be willing to listen to people even when we’re disagreeing and even when it comes to politics that we’re going to talk about in a few moments, I think because of where I’m now geographically located, I don’t need to just tell one-third of my church family I’m not listening to you because of this or of that and so, so far, Pastor, it’s worked pretty well.

Dr. Carwile:
We’ve been able to share the gospel with people that are different, that are passionately different. When they go to the voting booth, they would do it one way, I would do it another way but we’re still able to talk about Jesus and so, to me, that’s the bottom line through it all.

Dr. Smith:
Amen. Well, that was very encouraging. I thank the Lord for me as a pastor in my 30s and my 40s and 50s but I often look back and the dude in his 20s, I just was … Number one, I wasn’t biblical but sometimes I was just fleshly and stupid the way I kind of thought about older people giving me very good council. I’m in my 20s, they’ve walked with the lord for 40 years and I’m discounting their council. And I look back like, oh my god, God and congregations are patient with young preachers.

Dr. Carwile:
And listen, Brother, my first church … The first person I baptized I almost drowned him. I mean our first Lord’s supper, I was so terrified but my first church, New Grove Baptist Church in Blanch, Tennessee, they loved on me. I was a single pastor. I had not gotten married to my bride yet and so they loved on me and let me make so many mistakes but if I could go back and talk to that 24-year-old pastor, which talking about myself, man, I would give him a talking to, oh my goodness. There were times that I would cut people off because I’m the pastor. I’m the one that’s going to seminary. I’m the one going to school and I do think that age and experience helps with that.

Dr. Smith:
Yes.

Dr. Carwile:
And we literally go, my goodness, learn from my mistakes. Don’t do what I did.

Dr. Smith:
One of the things of humility that the Lord helped me with is my late pastor, I would preach a sermon and he would say, “Oh man, that was a wonderful sermon.” He would say, “You’ll preach it differently as you get older.” And oh, when you’re 25, man that irritates the cooties out of you.

Dr. Carwile:
Yeah, so you go, “What do you mean? What do you mean?” I had a brother one-time share with me, Pastor, he goes, “When God breaks you, you’re going to be a good preacher.” And I’m going, “What do you mean? What are you talking about?” And he says, “Well, right now, there’s a lot of hubris. Right now, there’s a lot of pride as you come across.” And I didn’t consider myself prideful and then over time, as life happens to you, disappointments happen to you, you go, man, that brother was right. Oh my goodness gracious.

Dr. Carwile:
And now, at age 56, I wish I could tell my 26-year-old self, “Hey, man, if you would’ve just listened, you could’ve been able to navigate some landmines. You could’ve been able to do some things,” but I’m very grateful now that I’ve got nine young pastors now that I’m mentoring and I just had a great Zoom meeting with them this past Tuesday night and so now, to tell them, “Learn from my mistakes.”

Dr. Smith:
Amen, amen.

Dr. Carwile:
And they’re looking at me going, “We didn’t know you made a mistake.” I said, “Well, let me count them off for you. There’re thousands of them.” And so I just think it’s important that we are real with people to go, “Listen, guys, I’m standing at the pulpit today and I am tired, I am worn out. I’ve had to take my kid to the doctor. I’ve had …” And people go, “Oh wow, he’s a real guy. He doesn’t live in some ivory palace somewhere.” And I think young pastors need to hear that, not only young pastors but our churches and our congregants need to hear that that you cut us, we bleed.

Dr. Carwile:
Our lives are just as real as yours are and then our wives have to share us with you guys. And so there’s this constant tension that doesn’t need to be removed but we need to learn how to manage that tension and so hopefully, maybe one of these days after I’ve been in ministry 50 or 60 years, I’ll have scratched the surface and learning as I go along.

Dr. Smith:
Well, let me ask you … Let me read your tweet and then I’m going to tell you kind of how it really caught my eye.

Dr. Carwile:
Okay.

Dr. Smith:
Let’s see, in Alabama, USA, I like the way Twitter kind of identifies where you are.

Dr. Carwile:
Yes, sir.

Dr. Smith:
Which is funny, because you talked about your geography, I used to always laugh, I don’t know if you felt this way, but all my friends down south, I didn’t get much credit when I was pastor in Louisville. They didn’t consider Louisville the South. They were like well, you’re just pastoring somewhere.

Dr. Carwile:
There you go. There you go.

Dr. Smith:
Kentucky is like really disrespected.

Dr. Carwile:
Yeah. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Dr. Smith:
So, you said several months ago, “I shared with a liberal church member, whom I love, that just because I am a pastor does not mean I forfeit my freedom of speech. He is a liberal and I am a Biblical and political conservative. We passionately disagreed and still love each other. You can too.” And so my context is two-fold, number one, I think if you look at church history and you think about the separatist approach of the Anabaptist and the two kingdoms approach of the Lutherans and the kind of prophetic history of the black church in America and kind of the Abraham Kuyper Christianity over culture approach of reform and you think kind of like a synthetic Catholic approach. I say Catholic, I mean worldwide where oftentimes there’s been alliances intermingling between the church and the state.

Dr. Smith:
So, one thing is, historically, I just don’t think there’s ever been anyone particular way in any society that Christians have engaged politics, the politics of the moment. Whether that be in a uniquely democratic republic with a constitution like the United States or whether that be emerging democracies in Africa or whether that be in some places outright hostile like the Middle East or China or North Korea. I don’t think Christians have engaged in politics and political and civic engagement uniformly in the same way and then my second burden arises from Christians have always differed politically but I thought there was just tremendous division among Christians in 2016, even to the point where it began to have effects on our witness.

Dr. Smith:
One of the reasons I was struck by this tweet from you is because I told you earlier when I was in Louisville, you were known as being a pastor and leading a church that was concerned about evangelism and so I actually had the opportunity to preach in Southern’s chapel on election day in 2016 and one of my points to the students was we should never engage anything culturally, socially, politically, a hobby or anything in any kind of way that would undercut our ability to be filled with the spirit and effective witnesses for the glory of Jesus Christ. In other words, I always think our Acts 1:8 witness is always the highest priority for Christians and everything kind of comes after that.

Dr. Smith:
I’m 30 years, almost three decades into being kind of an independent, matter of fact kind of explored a lot of stuff in my early 20s but I do think we’ve engaged politics in a way recently that’s just harmful to our Christian witness and so I was struck by your tweet. You described yourself and him as having significant political differences and at the beginning of the tweet, you said whom I love and at the end of the tweet, you said we love each other and you can too and so I mean I’m being sarcastic but in the way we live today, you mean Christians with political differences can love one another?

Dr. Carwile:
Yes, sir, I really believe we can. Part of my upbringing, Brother, my grandfather was a police officer here in Athens. He was a George Wallace democrat if you will and so as I was being raised up, my family, my dad, was more culturally conservative, politically conservative and then my papa, who I just loved and adored, wasn’t and because of work schedules and things, I spent a lot of time with my grandparent. They were my nee and papa. They’re both now in heaven but my grandfather got saved when he was 76 and my grandmother got saved when she was 72.

Dr. Carwile:
So, during opportunities to have conversations as I got older, my papa and I would go at each other and I came from what I thought was a biblical world view but my grandfather was not a believer in that. So there was a lot of emotion that would take place in those conversations and when he turned 80 years of age after my grandmother had died, I was spending lot of time with him. I would spend the night with him and we’d be sitting in recliners and we’d have these incredible conversations and I would look at him and say, “Papa, I love you no matter what. I love you no matter what.” And he would look at me, and of course, he was born in 1917 and so he would look at me and think I was the only grandchild and really, even my uncle and my mother who were his children, I don’t know if he had ever told them that he had loved them but he would look over at me and say, “Son, you know that I love you.”

Dr. Carwile:
And when he passed away and I officiated his memorial service, I was able to talk about that and say as we passionately disagreed politically, some other things that we talked about but man, he’s family and I’m going to love him and he’s going to love me and now, ministry, we’re family, and so I equate the blood kin that I had with my grandfather, that I have a blood kin with my brothers and sisters in Christ that may disagree with me and I disagree with them but we’re still kinfolk. We’re still brothers. We’re still sisters in Jesus Christ and we always have to be able to have dialogue. You have to be able to have a conversation and at the end of the day, as you said before, Pastor, if I alienate a group of people in the church that I serve because of my political views or whatever the case may be, and I dismantle the gospel of Jesus Christ before them, I will be held accountable for that.

Dr. Carwile:
And so I think as pastors that you can be passionate about one way or the other but I still have to be able to extend an olive branch to those that I may disagree with and disagree with passionately but I also should be able to share the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ with them.

Dr. Smith:
Amen.

Dr. Carwile:
And so that’s sort of, I guess, the perspective but I learned it from my family and then now, my church family, that this particular individual that I talked about in the tweet, he’s a hoot. Man, I just got to tell you. He is a hoot and he is passionate about what he believes. Likewise, I am passionate about what I believe but he and I were able to leave that room, hug one another, embrace one another and say, we’re just going to agree to disagree, and we move forward. And so I think pastors today that feel like they have to be in one camp or the other, let’s be in the camp of Jesus Christ. Let’s make sure that we are there so that we can have conversations with individuals who may disagree with us on any number of issues.

Dr. Smith:
Amen. The different congregations you’ve served, what has been the difference of the political makeup? You made some references of moving from Louisville to your present location, have you been the shepherd for people who have been politically diverse, people who are kind of politically homogenous or what has been the makeup of the congregations?

Dr. Carwile:
Well, I think part of my sanctification process, Brother, has been the willingness to listen to different voices. A year or so ago, I had quoted a book and you responded to my tweet and then I responded back and say, I read all genres and all different thoughts and I’m not going to be pigeonholed into one … I can only read this certain book by these certain authors, so I’m a voracious reader and so someone will come to me and say, “Hey, pastor, I read this book, now you’re not going to agree with everything in it but would you be willing to read it?” And I’ll usually go, “Oh, absolutely.”

Dr. Carwile:
What I will do, Doc, is I will come back to them and go, “The things that you had underlined or highlighted, is this what you believe?” And if I believe they’re in opposition to Scripture, I’ll bring my Bible out and say, “Now, guys, I don’t know where you’re getting this. It may be how you were raised or whatever the case may be but this is what God’s word says about it.” So, I believe that listening to different voices and then listening to their argument, the hot button issues of the day like abortion or same-sex marriage or any number of things that are out there.

Dr. Carwile:
I am willing to sit down and have a conversation and then say, “Okay, I believe the Bible says this about that, but I don’t want to run you off. I don’t want you to feel like you can’t come to First Baptist Church Athens because you believe this or that. I will share with you that I am as passionate on my side as you maybe passionate on yours and I’m going to preach the word of God.” Now, Pastor, for full disclosure, I’ve let my tongue get in front of my brain at times and I have said things in a moment of passion and I’ve had to come back and apologize.

Dr. Carwile:
I’ve had to sit down in a meeting one-on-one in my study and someone say, “Pastor, you said this on Sunday. You were preaching the Bible and then you got off on a tangent.” And Pastor, I’ve had to look at them and say, “My apologies.” I said, “I have feet of clay and I want you to know that it was not an intention of mine to offend you but if God’s word offends you, I do not apologize but if I offend you, I apologize.” And usually, Pastor, because there’s been a previous relationship developed, they’ll go, “I knew you would say that.”

Dr. Smith:
Yeah.

Dr. Carwile:
So, I just think it’s important, we had the radio ministry when we were in Louisville and then I can’t remember if it was Tim Hartlage or whoever it was that was at the WBFI radio station that also got us plugged into have a television ministry, I am sure that there were times that I said things in a moment. You know how we can get, Brother, when we’re preaching [inaudible 00:27:54]

Dr. Smith:
Yes, sir.

Dr. Carwile:
And then you say something and you go, oh my goodness, where did that come from? Well, it came from our flesh and I think we have to be willing, as a pastor, to own up to that, to acknowledge that and go, “Hey, guys, my apologies. I don’t lose my first amendment right to have my freedom of speech but I am here to preach the gospel. I’m not here to tell you who to vote for. I’m not here to tell you that this, that or the other.” And so, I think I’m still learning, even three decades into pastoring and ministry, I still have so much to learn about people, especially when I don’t know their background and where they’ve been and what they’ve endured and what they’ve gone through. I think if I continue to have a [inaudible 00:28:37] spirit, I think we can all finish well together.

Dr. Smith:
Yes. That’s so helpful. I think many times, if you ask a Christian in Alabama, Florida and Arizona and Washington state, locally, regionally and nationally, what are the three most important political issues on your mind right now, you could get a lot of different answers.

Dr. Carwile:
Yes, sir. Absolutely.

Dr. Smith:
And it seems if we can come to those many different answers and those answers are based upon our thoughts, our ideas, our opinions, maybe our circumstances, where we are, maybe you might be in a place that the number one issue really is highways because everybody’s tearing up their car on potholes.

Dr. Carwile:
Amen, there you go.

Dr. Smith:
Whereas, I’ve lived in Kentucky and Tennessee and the roads have been pretty decent. So, people can have different opinions about what’s really pressing. Secondly, I think many times people fail to at least be honest enough to say Christians can agree about a particular ethic of the Bible like murder is sinful and yet have different approaches to how they think we ought to try to influence the political process towards those things. At the beginning of the year, when it’s cold and all that kind of stuff, I go down to Washington and there’s the March for Life and we march up to the supreme court and we go over to the congress and all that kind of thing. You might be familiar with A Woman’s Choice, it was a pregnancy ministry there in Louisville.

Dr. Carwile:
Oh yes

Dr. Smith:
Yeah, and so sometimes we’d go out and pray on the sidewalk and stuff and I always had Christians that were like, “I don’t like all that politics and I don’t like Washington and I really don’t like you going all up in the congress and lobbying politicians like you’re a tobacco lobbyist or something.” I mean so Christians have always disagreed about how we should engage certain issues but I think one thing that’s hurtful is I think we should be honest about we have different approaches to methodology and not act like my approach is God’s approach and so if I know a brother that just says, “I’m not doing all that stuff in Washington and I don’t believe in protesting and all that.” I mean if he believes that life is precious and life is given by God and that Jeremiah was ordained in the womb and God knows us, if he believes biblically about what the Bible says about life, murder, death and those kinds of things, then I’m not going to question his Christian commitments and I’m certainly not going to question him or her being my brother or sister in Christ.

Dr. Smith:
I think we need a little more space in that and I think we’re just not consistent. Sometimes, they’ll say, “Yeah, man, I really value the way you were out there for March for Life,” and yet, there’s a citizen police conflict thing going on in Louisville, Kentucky. If I wanted to march in Louisville about that matter, they would say, “Oh, no, no, you’re being too political.” And I think it’s inconsistent, number one, to not say we need to realize all across the board we’re engaged in the political system in a variety of ways and I also think it’s inconsistent to not say look, if we’re from different areas, different communities will have different issues arise to the front.

Dr. Carwile:
Absolutely.

Dr. Smith:
How have you thought about even how Christians kind of prioritize their political engagement?

Dr. Carwile:
Well, again, being here in somewhat of a red state, I think there’s a lack of temperance as we look at issues and we try to demonize the opposition that because they’re not with us, they’re against God and they’re against the Lord and all these types of things. I think for each one of us culturally, geographically, we pastor in the local church and we have this imagery if you will that everybody’s got to be like you or look like you and that type of thing and that’s not the body of Christ. There’s such beautiful diversity of color, of backgrounds, all of the above in the body of Christ and I think pastors sort of limit that in their scope.

Dr. Carwile:
I mean what are they going to do when they get to heaven one day? I mean lord have mercy. I’ve ministered in Cuba. I’ve ministered in Botswana. I’ve ministered in Guatemala. I’ve ministered in Mexico. I’ve been numerous places and what that taught me was we’ve tried to Americanize Christianity and we feel like it’s got to be the way that we do it and I’ve learned so much from my brothers and sisters of color in Africa, as well as my brother and sisters in Cuba that have been under a regime for the last 60-plus years. Let me tell you, Brother, their joy of the Lord, I am jealous of it. They don’t have sound systems. They don’t worry about pews. They don’t worry about carpet They don’t have any of that.

Dr. Carwile:
They’ve got Jesus and I always come back and my mind’s about to explode because then I have to hear the whining and the complaining about the things that do not matter and even our political process that I go, “Guys, what if we were not under a democratic republic? What if we were unable to have elected officials and those types of things and we just had one dictator saying this is how it’s going to be?” “Well, I wouldn’t put up with that.” Well, guess what? Brothers and sister in Christ have put up with it for 2000-plus years. Those who believed in God under the minor prophets, those who sat under Isaiah and Jeremiah and others and so I feel as if the bottom line for me as a pastor, don’t lose your [inaudible 00:34:15] witness of being able to share the gospel with all people because of my political beliefs.

Dr. Carwile:
And so, for me, I’m going to have conversations with libertarians, with democrats, with republicans, with independents with whoever wants to have a conversation and at the end of the day, what does God’s word say? And then, let me be a vocal proponent for what God’s word says.

Dr. Smith:
Yeah.

Dr. Carwile:
Not just my opinion. Everybody’s got one of those but what does God’s word say?

Dr. Smith:
Amen. You mentioned in the tweet, pastors are citizens and so we don’t forfeit our free speech. So let me ask you, over the years, how have you thought about how you will speak about things and I will give you an example and feel free to challenge that and give a counterexample. I pastored in different settings, some that were largely white, some that were largely black, some that were in poor areas and some that were in middle-class areas. Now, I will admit, some of this stems out of just the fact of being an independent, so some of this is a little bit easier, but I’ve always tried to approach politics were number one, I never wanted anyone confused by when I was sharing my opinion and when I was preaching the word of God, so I’ve tried to be as minimal with those kinds of things in the pulpit.

Dr. Smith:
Churches I’ve served, there’s always been like a pastoral pray time or pastoral emphasis time, so I’ve tried to address matters in those ways rather than in sermon format. In sermon format, I’ve always tried to say, look, I’m preaching the word of God. Secondly, I’ve tried to address issues rather than candidates or parties because I think an issue is specific and candidates and parties, you kind of have to suck up a whole lot of stuff. You get the whole package there.

Dr. Smith:
For example, I think the most vociferous I’ve been in Louisville in different congregations is when the Kentucky Baptist Convention said we’re going to stand against expanded casino gambling. I specifically addressed that in our church. I addressed it in the pulpit and I addressed it in the sense of just want you to be mindful of what Jesus says about the poor and what the Bible says about the poor generally and now, I just want to give you some data about the consequences of the geographical regions where casinos are, what people call collateral damage on people in those areas.

Dr. Smith:
And then I’ll specifically say I’m certainly not telling you how to vote on the referendum but I do want to encourage you as a disciple of Jesus Christ to think about these matters and I think it should mean something to you at least in helping you make a decision if your pastor stands against this and then the Kentucky Baptist Convention, representing 2400 Baptist churches in Kentucky stands against this, so that was one thing and then we’ve also … I remember one time, Kentucky Baptist Convention, we did some things addressing payday lending places in poor neighborhoods.

Dr. Smith:
But my point is, they were specific issues, it was a biblical input we were trying to give on specific issues and I left it at you all need to kind of decide what you think. When people in the congregation have liked candidate X or candidate Y and I think they’re a jerk, I don’t say to the person A, “I think X is a jerk,” or “I think Y is a jerk.” And so I’ve tried to like, if there was a biblical issue that I wanted to make sure people thought about, I lifted that before them but I still didn’t say, now, vote this way or vote that way.

Dr. Carwile:
Amen.

Dr. Smith:
So, I just wanted to know, philosophically, as a pastor with free speech, I even limit what I say on social media stuff on my own personal social media because I’ve pastored churches where people care about what I think. So, just me sharing casual thoughts can have an influence on how a believer thinks about something, so I’m very mindful of how I steward that influence. How have you thought about I’m a pastor, I’m a citizen, I have free speech but I’m a pastor, how have you thought about those dynamics?

Dr. Carwile:
Well, I think an example that I could use when I pastored in Hazel Green, Alabama, which was 13 and a half years before I went to Louisville, my home town here in Athens and Limestone County, they went wet. They had been dry for decades and they would always say that it was the [inaudible 00:38:33] and bootleggers that kept it dry all those years and so when I returned home, this was a different place-

Dr. Smith:
Hey, let me interrupt you for one second. If you’re under 30 listening to this podcast, when he says go wet, he means that that county agreed that stores and gas stations could sell alcohol on Sundays.

Dr. Carwile:
That is correct. Well, and any day of the week as well. Any day of the week and so when I arrived back home, the county was selling alcohol and so I was asked about that and my response, Doc, was my family has many alcoholics and because of the testimony of my family, many of them have been gloriously saved and have been sober for years and so I was asked, Doc, “Pastor, so you’re telling me that you don’t socially drink?” And I went, “No, I do not.” I said, “I don’t necessarily condemn those who do because I have some pastor friends and brothers that may have a glass of wine or whatever,” I said, “But I have chosen not to do that because of my family tree.”

Dr. Carwile:
Years ago, I read an article by Max Lucado who said that he did not drink primarily because his genealogy rather than his theology and that’s sort of the example that I have used on a very sensitive subject in my city because a lot of the businesses that got their liquor license and now they’re profitable where before, they said that they weren’t and I simply said, “Guys, I’m not going to drink primarily because I might like it because there’s a lot of people in my family that wound up almost losing their families and losing their finances and their jobs because they couldn’t control it.”

Dr. Carwile:
And so, I think me sharing it that way rather than being very condemning as such that, guys, no, I don’t drink and I will not liquor and alcohol and that type of thing and I think people respected that simply because I gave them an example that for my life, it doesn’t work for me and whether it’s another sensitive subject, culturally, in a community, I’ve often told people from the pulpit, I’ll say, “Now, guys, if you want to have a one-on-one conversation with me about a particular matter, that’s not necessarily talked about in Scripture but it’s a political hot button, I would love to have a one-on-one conversation but I’m not going to deviate from what God’s word says,” and when I preach expositionally and I preach verse by verse through a book of the Bible or whatever the case maybe, I just sort of let the Scripture lead that and if it happens to cover something and the Holy Spirit prompts me, I’ll talk about it.

Dr. Carwile:
I think we as pastors sometime today when we only are preaching topically and we just sort of, okay, what’s ever happening culturally, that’s what I’m going to cover, we can sometimes, again, let our tongue get in front of our brain and we wind up giving a lot of opinion the Holy Spirit speaking at that particular time that we are now relatable to today. So, I think, for you, about situations that you addressed with the gambling and other things, I think we should address those things but there’s a right way and then there’s not a right way and I think if we get in our prayer closet and say, “Now, Lord, I’m going to hit this very sensitive subject this coming Sunday. Holy Spirit, help me to hold my tongue but also, Holy Spirit, help me to unleash my tongue so that I can address it biblically.”

Dr. Carwile:
And so that’s primarily what I’ve tried to do but I haven’t always been successful at that. I’ve made some mistakes and shared things and have to come back and once again, “Hey, guys, I apologize.”

Dr. Smith:
Let me give you a spicy question.

Dr. Carwile:
Okay, all right.

Dr. Smith:
So, number one, I think politics is complex and I think sometimes rather than doing the hard thinking, we simply try to have kind of simplistic approaches and one simplistic approach, I think, and I say this believing that Christians can be salt and light influence wherever they are. So I think a Christian can be a salt and light influence if they lean democratic or towards the donkey and I think a Christian can be a salt and light influence as they’ve leaned republican and towards the elephant but one thing that I think has been a challenge is a simplistic or single-issue approach has automatically alienated Christians if one person comes in with, “My priority is the abortion issue,” and another Christian comes in, “Well, my priority is loving your neighbor and where I can influence government policy towards the downtrodden or the poor or the dude on this American road.”

Dr. Smith:
So, when you have Christians just kind of like coming in the door through two different doors, it seems really hard to be loving and in unity unless they at least are willing to acknowledge, I choose to set these doors up this way, I’m not saying God said set it up this way. And I think it’s hard sometimes for people just to own your politics. My politics is my politics and I’m not trying to say that my politics is God’s politics and it seems like the hard lines are the abortion issue, the be all end all and we don’t need to think about anything else or are there other ways to think about political engagement.

Dr. Smith:
It seems like that’s one of the hard lines and I say it seems like because sometimes when people do surveys, as much as abortion is part of many Christians’ rhetoric about politics, a lot of times when people do surveys, if it’s not in a Christian setting and they’re just a citizen Joe or Jane out on the street and somebody asks them about what they’re concerned about politically, a lot of times they say the same things that people say about anything else, taxes and Russia and China and sometimes abortion is number five or six or seven on the list, that’s your rhetoric and your rhetoric doesn’t even match your political engagement and likewise on the other side, there are people that say, “My number one thing is loving your neighbor,” and they seem unwilling and so for them, things of marriage or things of abortion are like way down their list and it’s amazing that Christians can differ so much between what’s number one and what’s number seven in their thoughts about political engagement.

Dr. Smith:
If those two people are in a congregation and they have two different lists of political issues, how do you think about leading those and shepherding those brothers and sisters?

Dr. Carwile:
What a great question and I think a lot of what we deal with, at least in our context here, is in Sunday school classes where you have an individual who is mainly a conservative is taking a class of 20 or 25 ladies and there’re individuals in that class that don’t necessarily adhere to all the politics of that teacher but they know that teacher loves Jesus and they are trying to be salt and light and I’ve made it very clear, Pastor, that I have certain views. I am politically conservative. I’m independent. I have my way of thinking through processes based upon my upbringing and my raising but nevertheless, my main objective is the gospel and so I think when I allow something else to become a false god, whether it be my politics or the ball team I pull for, that’s such a simplistic example but when I let those things alienate people that I’m trying to reach, then I think I’ve stepped in idolatry.

Dr. Carwile:
I think if people do worship the donkey or an elephant, they don’t worship the lamb and I think that’s part of the problem and so, I think as long as we’re willing to have hard conversations that say, you know what? I don’t agree with you politically, but I know that you love me as my pastor, so I’m going to continue to be involved, I’m going to continue to share the good news of Jesus, those kinds of things, I think it can be unified in Christ but not birth and our politics.

Dr. Carwile:
And so, I wasn’t that way in my 20s. There’s a lot of apologies that probably still need to take place of things that I said and such but now, I think 30 years plus into it that I am to be the pastor of everyone. I am to love them with an unconditional love and I can still disagree. Listen, we’ve got this problem down here between Alabama and Auburn and I’m an [crosstalk 00:47:07]

Dr. Smith:
I was going to ask you how your members let you post all that eagle stuff.

Dr. Carwile:
I know, man. Listen, we have such a good time with that but listen, some folks take it pretty serious and especially when Auburn goes down to Tuscaloosa and happens to pull off a win, my tithing goes down for three weeks. I mean lord have mercy but having said that, at the end of the day, I think we have to bring them back to Jesus and bring ourselves back to Jesus and say I may not win this argument but I’m not out to win an argument, I’m out to win a person to Jesus and I think that has to be the bottom line of it all and I think in the culture that we live today with so much going on on the national stage and on the world stage, Jesus Christ is the only answer and I know I’m preaching to the choir now, Pastor, but I think that has to be our overriding theme.

Dr. Carwile:
Should we talk about race? Absolutely. Should we talk about politics? Absolutely. Should we talk about these things and pray about these? Absolutely. Man, at the end of the day, it ought to be about the cross. It ought to be about an empty tomb. It ought to be about a soon returning king and that’s what I try to bring our folks back to.

Dr. Smith:
Amen and just things … A congregation’s witness in the community. I’m thankful for the things I do in Washington but I don’t think anything is as important as just the years of the congregations I’ve served in Louisville, supporting A Woman’s Choice and supporting that particular ministry and seeing particular women and interacting with particular women and talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ or interacting with particular inmates at the Jefferson County Jail and talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ and interacting with particular politicians and other people and police chiefs and things like that as a witness of Jesus Christ.

Dr. Smith:
I never want to come in a room and they think, here’s another lobbyist coming in just like the tobacco lobbyists. No, I want to talk to you as a local pastor who leads people in this community and I want to talk to you from a point of what I believe to be righteousness because it’s based upon the Scripture and I think that really, really, really, really matters. Jesus Christ and his spirit has to be our primary point of identification and unity, kind of in Ephesians 4:3, “Endeavor to keep the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace.”

Dr. Smith:
And I want to give you the last word but I want to tell you something that hurts me and something I’m embarrassed about and you can relate to it. I’ve been in every state on my Harley except Washington and Oregon and I can be out in the middle of nowhere, Pastor, and somebody that’s like a redneck can see me at the gas station and I’m a black guy from Washington D.C. and he would call himself a redneck and I can be putting gas in my Harley and he can ask me where I’m going and he can ask me how the ride has been and then like three minutes into a conversation, he can say something like, “Well, if you’re ever riding out this way and you get in a bind or whatever, take my business card. My wife and I’d be glad to host you.”

Dr. Smith:
And the next hour, when I’m riding back down the road, I’m fire hot and mad because people who say they are united by the gospel of Jesus Christ and they are filled with the spirit of God, don’t have that same kind of inclination towards love and serving one another as a dude that I met three minutes ago but we ride the same motorcycle.

Dr. Carwile:
I know, man, ain’t it crazy? Yeah, it’s crazy. It’s crazy.

Dr. Smith:
For you shall receive power for on high after you are filled with the Holy Spirit that that has to mean something in how we functionally live together in this world.

Dr. Carwile:
Yeah, I know, amen.

Dr. Smith:
So, I ride away from those conversations thankful for that hospitality but like just mad as a Christian, like oh my gosh, I know this Harley is not going to unify different kind of people better than the spirit of Jesus Christ can unify brothers and sisters of every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation.

Dr. Carwile:
Amen.

Dr. Smith:
And I’m thankful for your background. Obviously, I think missions have influenced your thinking because you get to see a broader slice of the body of Christ and I think … Obviously, I think your background in business is influencing you because you’ve interacted with people in a leadership capacity before you were a pastor and I think that can sometimes be beneficial too but I don’t know if you remember, I was real excited in the summer of 2016 because we had a wonderful Southern Baptist Convention in St. Louis. Ronnie Floyd was our president. He had really shifted the annual meeting and there was a lot of prayer and a lot of worship and I just thought we left St. Louis in wonderful unity and then we got into the fall of the presidential campaign and Christians were at one another.

Dr. Smith:
Christians were calling one another names. Southern Baptists were at one another and it was just, I thought, tremendously hurtful for our witness and so what closing words might you have for pastors in particular but also just for brothers and sisters in Christ?

Dr. Carwile:
Thank you, Pastor. I really believe, guys, ladies, just stay in the word. Let that dictate your preaching. Your opinion matters but the word of God matters more and I think as we stand in our pulpits or looking at a camera on Zoom or Facebook Live or however it works out for the next several months, but I think you brought this up, Pastor, and I’ve got to relate to it. My Harley Davidson has opened so many doors to share the gospel with people because when they find out that I’m a pastor and I’m dressed in my leather vest and my leather chaps and I pull up to get gas somewhere or just riding and I pull into a restaurant and then I always try to take the first 45 seconds, I’ve got to get them to Jesus.

Dr. Carwile:
“Hey, man, I like your bike. What year is that?” That kind of thing. I say, “Oh, it’s a 2000 Fat Boy. My wife and I sold a piece of property and she told me to go get me a Harley and I just thank the Lord for this bike.” And they’ll sort of look at me and I’ll go, “Oh yeah, I’m a pastor.” And they’ll go, “You’re a pastor and you ride a Harley Davidson? How can you balance that?” And I said, “Listen, man, I’ve got to get places.” And I said, “I’m going to get there in style.” But we used to have the car and bike show, do you remember that, Pastor.

Dr. Smith:
Yes, sir.

Dr. Carwile:
We’d have 400 cars and we’d have 150 motorcycles and Brother, there were a couple times that my team said, “Hey, ride your Harley into the sanctuary.” I would ride my bike into the sanctuary and park it and I’d lay my Bible on the seat of my Harley Davidson and I would preach and there would be men come and get saved and gloriously saved and I think it was because we had something in common. And so I’m going to use anything at my disposal. I’ll become all things to all men that I might, in some way, save some and Paul’s admonition to us, to use whatever that we have and so, I think for us, as pastors, evangelists, directors of missions, missionaries, all of us, as we head into the fall, let us not become partisan. Let us not say it’s got to be my way or the highway, let’s do it the way of Christ.

Dr. Carwile:
And so if we have passionate disagreements about politics or whatever it maybe, let’s be willing to set those things aside, share the good news of Jesus Christ and move forward together, whoever is elected in November, whoever is your senator, whoever is your congressman, whoever is elected your mayor, whatever, make sure that we’re praying for all of those who are in authority. Make sure that we’re lifting them up to the Lord that they’ll make sound and wise decisions that we may lead godly and peaceful lives. I just believe that God is bigger than the presidency. God is bigger than a prime minister. God is bigger than a dictator. God is bigger than a senator or a congressman and I think sometimes, we as followers of Jesus, forget that.

Dr. Carwile:
We forget what it said in Daniel that God puts people in positions of authority. Sometimes for judgment, sometimes for prosperity but for whatever it is, God is sovereign over all and we can trust that. We really can.

Dr. Smith:
Amen, amen. All right, Pastor Carwile, First Baptist Church of Athens, county seat, coming up on 200 years.

Dr. Carwile:
Yes, sir. Hard to believe.

Dr. Smith:
If you’re listening to this podcast and you are not Baptist, numbers like that, we smile when we say that because that means that one is pastoring a historic congregation and so-

Dr. Carwile:
There you go, there you go.

Dr. Smith:
And we thank the Lord for an extended testimony and witness of Jesus Christ in that community for a long period of time.

Dr. Carwile:
Yes, sir. Amen, amen.

Dr. Smith:
Well, Pastor, thank you for your time.

Dr. Carwile:
Thank you, Brother. Thank you.

Dr. Smith:
I pray that we are encouraging God’s people to be peculiar people as Peter exalted us in I Peter and we will look to talk to you again. God bless you, Brother.

Dr. Carwile:
God bless you, Brother. Bless you, man. Take care.

Dr. Smith:
Bless you, Brother. Thank you.