#17: Pastor and Politician | Pastor James Gailliard

Dr. Smith:        
Hello, this is Kevin Smith Executive Director of the Baptist Convention of Maryland, Delaware. Thank you for joining us on the Peculiar People podcast where we think about what it means to be a follower of Christ in these current days. Many times, we on this podcast discuss issues that involve an application, that involve the Christian’s interaction in the society around them. And I’m part of a large denomination, our state convention and then a larger denominational family. And so, there are many issues that are extra-Biblical issues outside of the explicit teachings of scripture. And Christians come at those things sometimes differently. So I always like to say, in this podcast, we want to have conversations and everything we say, everything a guest says, is their opinion, and sometimes we will agree and sometimes we’ll disagree. But I want you to understand, I value conversation, and I think Christians need conversation in order to think. And so, if you ever hear anything on a podcast that is disagreeable to you, understand that’s number one, just part of being human, and then number two, even as a follower of Jesus Christ, there can be avenues and decisions and approaches where Christians have a disagreement, but it is helpful for us to seek to hear brothers and sisters in Christ, as we have dialogue and we seek to make decisions.

Dr. Smith: 
I am excited today to have a brother in Christ on the podcast, Pastor James Gailliard of the Word Tabernacle Church in Rocky Mount, North Carolina. He is a church planting Pastor who has been very fruitful. The Lord has blessed him. They bore much fruit there in Rocky Mount. I’ll give him an opportunity to share some about that. And also, last term, he was elected to the legislature in the state of North Carolina. And so, we’re going to talk on two levels, a brother in Christ who serves as the pastor of a local congregation, and then also, a brother in Christ who serves in the legislature of his state. And so, Pastor James Gailliard, thank you so much for joining us on Peculiar People.

Pastor Gailliard:
Well, thank you for the invitation, man. I value our friendship. I value what you do in the kingdom. And I’m living in the space of pastoral leadership and public policy, that intersection. And so, this is one of my favorite kinds of conversations to have.

Dr. Smith:
Amen. I’m looking for to being stretched let me put my cards on the table. I grew up in Washington, D.C. So Washington, D.C. is very political. And I was ordained in the church and Lexington, Kentucky. And I came with my D.C. [inaudible 00:03:15], and my pastor said, “Hey, I want you to read this from Spurgeon.” And it was some Timothy II. “‘He that engages in the warfare does not entangle himself with the things of the world, so he might please him who has called him to be a soldier.’ And I know you come from D.C., and you got all that D.C. in you.”. Man, when I was in my twenties, man, I was put on the defensive. And, obviously, he was shaped by some different models. And I’ve seen a lot of pastors do a lot of things regarding the political engagement. I’ve been so encouraged and really edified and built up as I’ve watched you love your neighbors there and Nash County, love your neighbors there in Rocky Mount. You know Rocky Mount is tender to me. Birthplace of my grandfather and all his siblings, and so, in many ways, we consider that an anchor for our family.

Dr. Smith:
And so I was wondering, we often start with a testimony. I want to do the testimony of a brother that grew up in Philadelphia, who was ordained in the Baptist Church, and his church is a leading baptist church in the Baptist Convention, State Convention, there in North Carolina. He affirms the Baptist faith and message. So I want to say those things theologically because I find one thing, when you even try to engage a political discussion, you got first tell people who you are theologically because they want to just try to dismiss the conversation. So I want to say that a Baptist brother is talking to another Baptist brother about Christians and political engagement. So I’ve been finding this helpful on these podcasts, if I ask a person I’m interviewing to give a testimony of their political journey. So I have stipulated that you are brother in Christ, and you even happen to be a brother in the same denominational family and the same confessional family. But tell us about your political journey, how you became who you are.

Dr. Smith:
I always give an example. I grew up in the Washington D.C. area. I was engaged in a lot of different political activities because I was intrigued by people’s personalities. A lot of the church life in Washington, D.C. in the ’70s and ’80s was politicized and very, very, very influenced by the political process. I went away to college, and I think in college, there were several politicians I was really excited about and either disillusioned because of some personal faults in their lives or was disillusioned because I thought they were just like great people, just amazing. When you really admire someone’s ideas, and then, you see political opponents just tackle them and destroy them. And when you’re in your twenties, sometimes to see that can be really devastating.

Dr. Smith:
After college, I worked in the United States Senate. I was an accounting major. I work on tax issues and things like that. And you go up there, and you like, “Man, I’m looking for Thomas Jefferson and James Madison and George Washington.” You get up there and you like, “Man, these guys are just trying to live to the next election.” And they about the most pragmatic guys you ever met in your life. And so, somewhere… I know before I was married. So somewhere in my early twenties, I got very comfortable in this Independent space and that hadn’t changed in nearly three decades. I’m not talking about a particular candidate or particular policy issue. Just the culture of one side I thought was very indifferent or even hostile towards God or morality. And then, I thought another side was very indifferent or even hostile towards poor people… and then look in the mirror, black people. And so, I found myself in a very Independent space. And so sometimes people say, “Ah, do you feel politically homelessness?” So I say, “No, no, no. I feel where I’ve been for almost three decades.” And so, that’s my testimony. I just give that an example. What is the testimony of your political journey and how you became who you are, the elected representative from the city… well from your district, but your district certainly covers Rocky Mount.

Pastor Gailliard:
Yeah, and I appreciate that, man. I think for me, just growing up in Philadelphia… You mentioned I’m a native of Philadelphia, born and raised. And I actually grew up in the United Methodist Church. I got saved in the United Methodist Church. And so, I grew up in a culture where the church was very socially engaged, but the confusion for me was that I wasn’t seeing people get saved. I probably could count a handful of people that got saved in 10 years, 15 years, growing up, and it just didn’t really connect for me. So I felt myself… I wasn’t really comfortable there. And when I was coming up in Philly, we had giants, man, of African-American pastors that were very socially engaged.

Pastor Gailliard:
The one guy that comes to mind is Leon Sullivan, the founder of OIC. His church was literally… There is no 14th Street in Philadelphia, so instead of 14th Street, you have Broad Street. So if you had a 14th Street, it would be Broad Street. Well, I lived on 11th and Venango and Zion Baptist Church, where Leon Sullivan pastored, was at Broad and Venango. It was literally 14th, and it was three blocks from my house. And here’s a guy who built the first outdoor mall of a church; wrote the Sullivan Principles, economic sanctions against South Africa; found OIC, this massive workforce development model; first African-American to sit on a major Fortune 100 board. And so, I watch the dynamics of the black church specifically embracing this context of the gospel being much more holistic than caring only about where a person spends eternity, but also how a person lives on Earth.

Pastor Gailliard:
So I grew up with that framing for me a little bit. And then wound up in Southern Baptist life when I was really felt led by God to plant a church and understood the value of the gospel from the perspective of our identity in Christ and preaching Christ and helping people have a relationship with Christ and grow by way of discipleship in that relationship with Christ. But I felt I had gone from one extreme to another. I felt I had gone from the extreme of national Baptist, progressive Baptist, United Methodist roots, a far-left theology, making sure people can eat right now… and I think there’s value in that, let me be very clear… to the far-right perspective in the Southern Baptist life that was basically saying, “As long as you know Jesus, I don’t really care a whole lot about how hungry you are or the fact that your child gets suspended at a different rate than my child, because they have a different color. We not really getting that space.”

Pastor Gailliard:
And for me, it was more like it’s both. Why can’t I be engaged evangelically and it have social consequences? Quite frankly, Kevin, if you preaching the gospel, it has to have social consequences, because when a person gets saved, it reconciles them not only to a holy God, but then, it reconciles me to a brother, who maybe I have a difference with socially, economically, a difference with racially, a difference from a political context. So when I’m saved, there is my evangelical process, success has social consequences. Now, for the first time, you’re calling me to love somebody who doesn’t look like me, to love somebody who’s not of my ilk. So now, you have broadened my context of who my neighbor is.

Pastor Gailliard:
That has social consequences. And, likewise, my social work, my social engagement, has evangelical consequences. And so, as I’m feeding you, as I’m tutoring your child, as I’m helping you make it on Earth, you become curious about my God that motivates me to do this work. You become curious about my morality become curious about… You know how I spent Thursday nights tutoring your child, but you curious now, “I wonder what Sunday morning looks like for this brother.” And now my social engagement has evangelistic consequences. So, for me, I came up and, very much like you, in this space where I was kind of by myself, because I was running with people that they were either/or people. And I have viewed the gospel as both. I have viewed it both as devotion and duty. I viewed it both as prayer and practice. I viewed it both as fasting and feeding somebody, as worship and work.

Pastor Gailliard:
So we built an entire ministry platform on viewing the gospel as both justification by faith and social justice. And we watch people that are leery of that. I would tell them, “I’ve been Rocky Mount 15 years. This is our 15th year church anniversary and we baptized 2,700… 2,691 people in 15 years. You can’t tell me that’s not legitimate work for the gospel.”

Dr. Smith:
Amen.

Pastor Gailliard:
So that’s been my space, man, and it magnified over the years. And, Kevin, man, our workforce development piece came about… The church was growing like crazy. When I first came, we were year in, and we were about to go to a second service. We started with 14 people. A year in, we were seeing 450 people on Sunday morning, and the offering wasn’t moving. So we were filling up seats, but the offering wasn’t moving. So we decided to survey our congregation, like, tell us about your income levels. Tell us about the job you have. Tell us about… Well, the results of the survey came back. 34.5% of everybody that was worshiping with us was unemployed. 34% unemployment. So we were reaching them for Jesus, but here was my issue, man.

Pastor Gailliard:
My issue was, the brother coming out of jail… True story. Comes out of jail. The first place he comes to, Word Tabernacle Church. The first Sunday there, gets saved. We immediately begin disciplining him, so he starts coming to men’s around table. He comes to men’s round table, and I’m teaching if a man don’t work, he shouldn’t eat. Brother comes up to me and says, “Pastor, I want to do everything you teaching me to do. All I know how to do is hustle, sell drugs, thug. But if you can help me get a skill to do something else, I want to do it. I want to be that guy that the Bible says I’m supposed to be. But I don’t know how to do that. I don’t have the resources for that.” And, Kevin, I got such a conviction, because let me tell you what I learned in that moment. I was preaching stuff that I didn’t have a platform for people to live out. I was preaching, “Don’t eat if you don’t work,” but I didn’t have a platform for them to get a job. I was preaching things that I really, really didn’t have a platform.

Pastor Gailliard:
So then, I realize, in order for this ministry to really do what we think God is calling us to do, we have to build out these platforms for the stuff we’re preaching about. And out of that work, we evolved into this massive social environment where we touch… you name it… education and health care and housing. The list just goes on and on… workforce, human trafficking. How can you… Real talk, you’re Southern Baptist, you got a heart for human traffickers. And women are out there, you want to get them, rightfully so, out of the strip club. You want them off the poles. You want them off the streets. Well, okay, you got them off the street now. You got them off the pole. The only way they could pay rent was on the pole. And then, now you not going to introduce them to a workforce program. You’re not even helping them get the skills necessary so they don’t go back on the pole. I have an expression, man: “I’m excited I’m going to heaven, but I don’t want to live in hell until I get there.” And so, that’s been what the journey has been for us over these years.

Dr. Smith:
Well, I think that’s helpful. I certainly celebrate you, because I was a chaplain in the county jail, Chattanooga, Tennessee, before I was a pastor, and I have the burden of re-entry challenges. And, as you say, when people are changed by the Lord… and I saw a lot of men’s lives change… So I told you earlier, I was disillusioned in politics in my early twenties. I also got disillusioned a little bit with local churches, because I used to struggle to get ex-offenders placed and received and warmly received in local congregations. And I’m like, “I thought the gospel is for everybody, and I thought Jesus changes everybody and anybody could follow him. like Peter or Matthew, the tax collector.” And so, I certainly celebrate that.

Dr. Smith:
And I think, when you said, “either/or,” it’s amazing where we set up false dichotomies that the scripture just does not have. For Jesus said, “The greatest commandment is to love God with everything you have, your heart, soul, mind, and strength.” And the second is like it, “Love your neighbor as yourself. On these two, hang all the law and the prophets.” So why would a follower of Jesus Christ have some type of false dichotomy that our Lord has not given us? As matter of fact, our Lord says, “On these two…” the vertical relationship and the horizontal relationship, “… hang all the law and the prophets.” And so, thank you so much for just caring about…

Dr. Smith:
If someone believes the gospel, and they’re here among God’s people, are we going to assist them in a walking and steps of obedience and discipleship? The places I’ve pastored, black or white, they’ve been places where there’s been a lot of shacking, and so, when the scripture takes about fornication, cohabitation, all that, I will address those matters. If a person is in a economic bind and some of their economic viability is wrapped up in that cohabitation or sinful lifestyle, then I always felt the need, as a pastor, to have a network of widows or widowers or older couples, who had a basement apartment or garage apartment or would be happen to have someone to live with them. Because if they say, “Hey, I want to honor the Lord, but I’m financially trapped,” then I just thought the congregation be able to say, “Well, come here. Here’s a way we can help you out of that financial trap that you might pursue righteousness.” So I love that phrase you have, “Platforms for people to obey the things that we are teaching in the word of God. That is so, so, so effective.

Dr. Smith:
So when you’re doing job training, and obviously, you spotted a need within the congregation and the broader community, obviously educational disparities are always an issue in many different communities, what point do you say and how do you come to the point when you say, “I want to contribute to these issues in Raleigh?” And if you’re not familiar, you’re on the podcast, Raleigh is the state capital of North Carolina. At what point do you say, “Hey, I think I want to try to contribute to these issues in Raleigh?”

Pastor Gailliard:
Yeah, for me, it began actually as a education issue. We have about 1,100 K12 kids, who, at the time… a little bit more now, but at the time, a third of our church was… a third of our churches still K12 kids. And we had a really difficult local issue going on with that, and I didn’t feel like it was handled in a just way, in a equitable way. I don’t feel like they created opportunities for stakeholder engagement, community engagement. And quite frankly, I’m a under-shepherd man. One of my tasks is to protect the flock, man, from the wolves, regardless of what the wolf look like. And sometimes, it’s political or structural or systemic. And I didn’t feel good about how the issue was handled, so I decided to go ahead and run [inaudible] office, because I felt a calling from God. And I view it as a mission field. When I ran…

Pastor Gailliard
You mentioned Raleigh, state capital. Well, there’s portions of Raleigh that are very, very low-wealth, high-crime, largely African-American. In this state, we know what those areas of Raleigh, southeast Raleigh and other places. And said to my congregation, my elders and leaders, “If I were to say to you, ‘I’m going to spend the next two years of my life in southeast Raleigh. I want to be on mission. So I’m going to come and preach on Sundays. I’m going to still teach Bible study. But during the week, I want to spend a pretty decent amount of time on mission in southeast Raleigh, because I was like, ‘God is calling me to that community.'” I said, I told them, “You all would drive me. You all would work with me, It would be no issue. ‘My pastor on mission.” I view the General Assembly the exact same way. I am on mission for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Pastor Gailliard:
My identity is Jesus, has been Jesus, will be Jesus. This is something I get highly frustrated about in our current political culture, because I do believe they’re too many people that profess Christ that do not fully identify with Christ. And when I’m in a context, I’m a Christian first. I recognize I’m a man. I recognize I’m a black man. Even though I’m biracial, I was raised as a black man. I recognize I’m a man. I recognize I’m African-American. But my principal identity is in Jesus, because there is always going to be moments where there’s going to be a debate of my will, of my masculinity versus my identity in Christ, of my race versus my identity in Christ. The end of the day, Christ has to win every debate. And so, unless I resolve myself that Christ is my identity, then I’m going to go up there and fail.

Pastor Gailliard:
So I don’t compartmentalize my life. The same James Gailliard that you get in the pulpit on Sunday morning is the same James Gailliard you get in the general assembly when I’m there. And I don’t have that debate around, who are you getting today? And so this is a mission call for me. Kevin, I’ve watched, man. Be a quick example… It’s a highly social, sinful at times, environment. And you go up. Peoples staying for three, four nights in hotels. And you got lobbyists. And people coming with short skirts on in your office. And all of this stuff you dealing with… This group is having this cocktail party and all that. And I just said, “I’m not participating in any of that. I’m not going to those cocktail parties. I’m not going to that stuff.” And I got criticized. They said, “Man, you won’t have any influence up here. You have to do certain things for people to know who you are.” And I said, “But that’s not my identity. That’s not who I am. I’m just not going to do it.” So I didn’t. Let me tell you what started happening. Lobbyists, other individuals, started calling my office saying, “Listen. I understand you don’t go to these kinds of things. I would like to still work with you. I want to know you. Can I come to your office?” I have lap scarfs. You know how the same way you have lap scarfs in church?

Dr. Smith:
Yeah.

Pastor Gailliard:
I have lap scarfs in my office from the General Assembly.

Dr. Smith:
Brother, you Pentecostal. Are you Baptist or Pentecostal?

Pastor Gailliard:
Hey, whatever, man. I’m a brother with some stance. You don’t need to be showing people all that on Sunday morning with. And so, we’ll talk about that. I’ve seen too many times marriage is on the rocks. The Lord finally get the brother to church. They finally sitting on the seats next to each other where he can get the word. And then, here come sister chick, with her skirt on three inches above her knee. And she sit down next to the dude, and she cross her leg. They already struggling with infidelity or whatever. Now he’s distracted. The wife is distracted. Nobody getting the word. So it’s not an indictment on people. Come on to church. I want you to come on to church, but I don’t want you to be a distraction to what the Holy Spirit is doing by way of the word to God’s people. So you come to my office in the General Assembly and try to, crossing your legs and showing half your leg, I’m going to give you a lap scarf. And that’s just who I am.

Pastor Gailliard:
So my point is, there’s this assumption that I don’t agree with this whole issue of politics can ruin you. It can ruin you if you’re not clear on your identity. But if you’re clear on your identity, it won’t ruin you. It’s no different than an attractive woman not going to ruin your marriage. If you clear about who you love and what you’re doing, it don’t have to ruin anything. So I think when people really are clear about their identity, you can in and operate in this space, man, and honor the Lord Jesus Christ in this space.

Dr. Smith:
I think one thing that is key is you consistently speak of our identity in Christ, and you spoke earlier about being on mission. And I know from my time in the Senate, that’s whole different mindset than “I’ll do whatever it takes to win the next election.” And so, I think identity tremendously matters when you get up there. And so, I praise the Lord for your discipleship habits and your discipleship intentions. And I totally agree with you. Something doesn’t have to ruin a person, but I think many people do not go into the situation already rooted and grounded in their identity in Christ.

Dr. Smith:
When I pastored in Tennessee, one of my local congressman, likewise, who would describe the climate of the lobbying and how people try to gain influence. A matter a fact, I was really discouraged. He said, “You would think it’d be something different when the Christians are trying to lobby for their issues.” And he was like, “It’s no different with the Christians. They use some of the same manipulative, influential techniques that other lobbyists use.” And so, I think that whole environment really entails… If I can say a verse, it entails something like, “And Daniel predisposed his mind that he would not eat of the King’s dainties.” So, okay, once you in an environment and you have a predisposed mind, you’re already set to negotiate the dynamics. But if you go in there without a predisposed mind, certainly you can be gobbled up.

Pastor Gailliard:
Oftentimes you’re told when you get there, you have to vote caucus and constituents.

Dr. Smith:
Mm. Yes.

Pastor Gailliard:
I vote Christ and conscience.

Dr. Smith:
Yes.

Pastor Gailliard:
And I’ve learned, man, that my constituents want a guy with a conscience. They do.

Dr. Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pastor Gailliard:
If I vote Christ and conscience, my constituents are fine, and my caucus will be okay eventually. Y’all get over it. The squabbling will go down.

Dr. Smith:
Because they need you for the next thing.

Pastor Gailliard:
Exactly right. But they know… And I don’t play the game of you’ll find out where I stand on something on the House floor. You can come to my office and ask me ahead of time. The lobbyists love working with me for this reason. “Where are you on this issue? “Here’s where I am and here’s why?” And they know it, so it’s no surprises on the House floor. I’m not negotiating no deals under the table and selling my soul. Brother, I got to come back here, preach on Sunday morning, teach Bible study on Tuesday night. I need to trust that when I stand up and deliver the word, that people feel as if I’m still a yielded vessel to the Lord. And Holy Ghost, man, can’t use me if I’m selling myself out three and four days a week in Raleigh, and then all of a sudden I want to come back, and now say, “Lord, use me. Fill me up.” It just doesn’t work like that, man. So it’s been a good experience, a good journey. And I feel like Christ is being honored in the midst of it.

Dr. Smith:
Amen. Let me ask you a question, and I want to give you a full platform to unpack this. One thing we have to…. As we engage these political issues, we need to think about the breadth of the Christian church. You have the structured, political engagement in the U.S. You have the Roman Catholic church. You have mainline Protestantism. You have the historic prophetic presence of the black church. And then, you have what people might call evangelicalism, or they would identify themselves with more majority. Across all those sectors, you can find Christians who would describe themselves as single-issue voters, and they would describe themselves as pro-life voters. And I’ve heard other people use this, but I can’t remember who I’ve heard use it, because I never really paid any attention to it.

Dr. Smith:
After I heard you say something, because I said I always wanted to get you to unpack this… And so, I have some follow up. So just tell me, what is a whole-life Democrat? Is that the phraseology? Did I get that right? So I’ve heard people talk about whole-life in… My kids are in their twenties, and we would go downtown in Washington to the March on Life. And I can see that they thought that was broader, or they thought it was something wider than what it is. And so, in the context of how you position yourself politically, what do you mean by the phraseology, whole life Democrat?

Pastor Gailliard:
Yeah, man, that’s a great question, Kevin. And I’m going to make a statement here that might sting a little bit and be a little bit strong, but it’s one that I really feel serious about. I think one of the most dangerous groups of people in America are single-issue voters around abortion. I think they’re way too my myopic. I think they’re creating an undercurrent politically and socially that is damaging our country. And it breaks my heart when I hear something like, “I would never vote for a pro-choice candidate.” So for me, I’m a whole life Democrat, which means I value life in the womb and throughout the world. Period. And so, I think that abortion is an unfortunate reality to many people. I think it’s not a social good. I don’t believe in it as health care. I, as a pastor and as a politician, discourage and never promote abortion, but my conversation around life does not end there.

Pastor Gailliard:
Unlike most people… And I would say, as you know I’m a Democrat only because I have to be. I spent my whole life Independent. Here in North Carolina, and I hope that’s something that changes politically in our nation, because I do think there are far more people… I think you got 15% or 20% far right and 15%-20% far left. I think most of America is much more moderate, but the system does not lend itself to that. So you have to pick a side. And so for me, I could not be a part of a party with so much conviction and so little compassion. I could not do it. But it didn’t mean that I was going to abandon my values.

Pastor Gailliard:
And so, I’d never promote abortion. I always promote life in the womb, but I also equally promote life outside the womb. And I think most people that talk about being pro-life are only dealing with the issue of abortion. And I’ll give you a great example. African-American women disproportionately are represented in maternity mortality rates. So African-American women die disproportionately in childbearing than white women. I’ve never one time heard a person who says, “I’m pro-life,” address maternal morbidity of African-American women. I’ve never one time heard it. I’ve heard them talk about the numbers of African-American babies that might be killed in abortion. But if you’re legitimately whole-life, pro-life, how come the life of that African-American mother who’s attempting to deliver, how come her life doesn’t matter? That’s just one issue. We get to talking about life issues, and they go on and on. And so, from my perspective, people that are politically now… People that say, “I’m pro-life,” are really only anti-abortion. For me, as a whole-life Democrat, I am saying I discourage and never promote abortion, because I value life in the woman, believe life begins at conception, and I equally value that life as that child is born and as that child progresses to adulthood and as this child has opportunity to have a substantive life in America. I value every part of that journey. That is what I refer to as being whole-life.

Dr. Smith:
Certainly, I know you, and then, I’ve read about the governor of Louisiana. And I used to be familiar with the Senator, U.S. Senator from Pennsylvania. My point being, I’m not in the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, So I don’t know all the caucus and things, but it seems like it is very hard for someone to have a whole-life or image of God voice in some of those settings, and so, I praise the Lord for your voice in those settings.

Dr. Smith:
I just think… and please tell me if I’m wrong… I think in both parties, fringes drive a lot of the rhetoric, and obviously, being a child of black church and growing up in Prince George’s County, which is on the largest black middle class in America, I didn’t grow up around people talking about abortion. I didn’t grow up around people that thought it was a good thing. Matter a fact, I grew up around people that thought there’s parts of evangelicalism where adoption and foster care is a good issue right now and a good concern. I thank the Lord for that. But I grew up where that stuff has been going on. They just didn’t go to court and get the paperwork. It was always like a, “You going to have this baby, and if you can’t raise it, then Aunt so and so is going to raise it or Miss so and so is going to raise this baby.” So general interactions in party life, how much is that issue number one for people?

Pastor Gailliard:
In our party, meaning the Democrat side, I don’t think that it is the number one issue that it would be for Republicans. It’s an issue of intensity for them. It has worked to really drive their base. I think for us as Dems, I don’t think it’s as significant of an issue. You’re right, that 15% is driving fringes on both sides. That’s because of our primary system. You only can get out of your primary, if you’re the most extreme. And that’s the flaw in our system that I hope one day we can correct. I think there are much broader issues that we deal with that represent the social safety nets really providing people real substantive opportunity for life, addressing issues of inequity, whether they exist within health care or education. Those are kinds of things that we’re spending much more bandwidth and caucus capital on, as opposed to the issue of abortion.

Pastor Gailliard:
In every session just about, Republicans will put another bill up. Quite frank, it’s all political. It’s just to get you on record to say… And they’ll name it something real fancy that’s going to make the headlines. And we had this happen in North Carolina, After Birth Abortion Bill. And so, on the surface you’re like, “After Birth Abortion Bill. Are you kidding?” And then you deal with the nitty-gritty of the issue, and you start to really understand what’s really going on and what things are happening.

Pastor Gailliard:
And, Kevin, I’ll tell you, man, it’s disheartening for me. It is disheartening to watch that level of political manipulation that goes on by both parties. When I voted initially with the Republicans regarding the After Birth Abortion Bill, I got threatened with being primary by Planned Parenthood and some other groups. And I said, “You know what? Take your chances.” I serve a moderate district, but I’d rather come home with a clear conscience than to stay up there and not be able to sleep at night. And so, I think as political leaders, we just have to… You got to go up there knowing who you serve, man, and being really clear on the front end.

Pastor Gailliard:
So I really don’t think it’s the hot button political issue for Dems as it is for Republicans. I’m disheartened by the lack of conversation. I mentioned just the maternal morbidity rate. Something as simple as just making sure people have health care. How can I live if I can’t be healthy. How can I be help me about have access to health care? So I don’t know how with the same breath you say, “Don’t abort the baby, but I’m also going to not fund programs to help that baby have some shot at a substantive life.” I just don’t know how you do both. And that’s what we’re seeing in this political climate, in my opinion.

Dr. Smith:
So in this political climate… and I realize you’re in a particular state, but I also realize certainly you observe things that are happening at a national level… but in your climate and the people that you are exposed to on both sides, I’m sometimes confused whether this is a game and a next election power thing for people, or where people are really principled and morally or ethically or philosophically committed to the positions that they hold. You’ve been in the State House. You’ve been engaging with politicians on both sides of the aisle and within your caucus. Do you find just the general person that you’re meeting, are there any uncompromising principles for them or is this really just it’s about getting elected?

Pastor Gailliard:
Yeah, I think we have too many people in public office that are just trying to get elected. They recognize the hot button issues. They don’t want to get primary. And they just want to come back, man. And I think, until we have more people in public office that just really are there really for the right reasons and it’s not about power… Because I’m going to tell you, man, if you’re grounded, Kevin, the power can go to your head, man.

Dr. Smith:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pastor Gailliard:
You get elected in a public office, and it’s amazing how folk treat you all of a sudden. And if you’re not really grounded, man, that thing can go to your head. And before you know it, you’re living to maintain that. You’re living to keep having that. You have to view it as service. I am there to serve. Period. And so, I do think it’s, too often times, to get reelected.

Pastor Gailliard:
And I’ll give you an easy example since we’re talking about abortion, or that’s what started this conversation, the term whole-life. There are things that I think most groups could agree on pretty readily as relates to abortion, but it’s not politically expedient for any group to agree one. So informed consent. You know what? You can’t just show up, have an abortion because you want to. There needs to be informed consent. Who disagrees with that? But nobody wants to give any ground. Nobody wants to give any ground, and so… Outlaw an abortion on the basis of protected characteristics…. gender race, disability… You know, “I’ve got a Down Syndrome baby.” That ain’t a reason to abort the baby. Who can’t agree on that? I can tell you right now, Republicans that I know and Democrats that I know both agree on it. But neither can publicly agree on it, because I can’t get reelected if I do. And I think we need more moderate candidates, so which I would consider myself one. I’m morally very conservative, and I’m socially very moderate. I’m not really liberal on much. And so, I think we need more moderate candidates that are willing to say, “You know what? Let’s tighten this thing up the best we can to benefit as many people as possible, so we all can live together in harmony and move on to the next issue.”

Dr. Smith:
I believe in the sovereignty of geography, meaning I think congregations are where they are by God’s pleasure, and they should pursue God’s glory where they are. And you’ve certainly attempted to do that and are doing that and bearing that fruit in Rocky Mount with the Transformation Center. You can correct me if I’m wrong. I think it’s a separate 501(c)(3) community development corporation, which empowers the community in things like job training, computer training and a variety of things that happened there at the facility that you all purchased. Word Tabernacle Church/Transformation Center is a seven-day-a-week type situation. It’s not like you coming there on Sunday to worship, and you coming in on Wednesday night for Bible study, and the rest of the time the building just collecting dust. It’s a seven-day-a-week type situation. And so, as a pastor of a local church, obviously, you feel a responsibility to the members of Word Tabernacle, the members that you feel that you will answer to the Lord for as a pastor and under-shepherd or congregation that is obeying Jesus’ command to make disciples. But geographically or contextually, as a pastor of a local congregation, what type of responsibility do you feel… I’m not going to say to broader Rocky Mount, but at least to your side of town, five miles around your church, ten miles around your church?

Pastor Gailliard:
Yeah, that’s a great question. And just to correct you, it’s the Impact Center, but it-

Dr. Smith:
Impact. Yes.

Pastor Gailliard:
It’s all about transformation. Our members come from ten North Carolina counties and six Virginia counties. And so, we literally have people that drive 50-60 miles one way to be an active part of our membership. We built a congregational, and concepts that I like to oftentimes remind pastors of. The first is: Not everybody in the community will belong to your church, but the church belongs to everybody in the community. That’s the first big concept we built this on. And the second big concept was: If you love the people nobody else wants, God will start sending you the people everybody else wants. And so, we really believed in this whole platform that we have a responsibility for the larger community.

Pastor Gailliard:
Let me give you an example. One of my first meetings 15 years ago was with the chief of police in Rocky Mount. My first church, we were in south Rocky Mount, high crime area. We were in the hood, man. That’s where I love to do church planting, man. That’s why I love it. You walk, man, and neighbors close by and public housing was two blocks away. And so, I called chief of police and I say, “Are you able to grab some numbers for me?” He said, “What do you need to know?” I said, “Could you tell me in the last 12 months…” Church may have been three months old… “Can you tell me in the last 12 months, how many 911 calls did you get within a one-mile radius of my church building? He gave me a number. And I said to him, “I’d like you to give me the same number one year from now, because of the number hasn’t decreased, then we’ve not done our job.’ Because my concept was for every brother that gets saved, that’s one less brother hitting somebody upside the head. That’s one less sister that’s tricking. That’s one less person stealing from their grandmother. That’s one less person selling drugs on the corner.

Pastor Gailliard:
So we should have an impact on the community around us. It is a tragedy for me that church doors could close and the community not even feel the pain of it. Forget about the members. We are the body. Let me tell you something, we’re going to be fine. We are a body of believers and as much as we do want to congregate, as much as we want to come together, we are fine. We have a relationship with the Lord Jesus. We have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. We have the scriptures operating within us. We are going to be fine. “Gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.” The problem is the community. They’re not fine. They need our presence. They need our witness, and not… Too often times, we don’t focus our ministries on the community, and so our whole objective from day one was, how can we give ourselves away to the community?

Pastor Gailliard:
And then, we got to a point. And to your reference about our Impact Center… 125,000 square foot facility, former Home Depot… really is an anchor asset to the community. We took it to the next level. And the next level was, we always knew the building wasn’t the church. We always knew that. So since we know the building is not the church, let’s get a church building away to the community. And our people embrace that reality. And so, now you have… Pre-COVID, we have Boys and Girls Club and large employers and school systems and school districts and other nonprofits, and you name it, using our church building for their programming and for the various things we do. So we want to just give the building away. And now we have all these centers operating… culinary arts and hospitality and media and broadcast, health and wellness and leadership development and capacity building. This list goes on and on. But the whole objective for us was to give ourselves and give our building away to the community.

Dr. Smith:
Amen. What a gracious engagement with the command to love your neighbor. I think there’re pockets of Christianity where people would own that the Bible says, “Love your neighbor,” but I think there are many pastoral leaders who don’t necessarily think of it in a congregational context of, “How can I, as a pastor, lead our congregation in being loving to our neighbors, meaning the people who are actually engaging and interacting in and around our congregation?” And so, it’s so encouraging to see those things going on. Let me ask you, as a Christian certainly, but even as someone who wants to get stuff done in Raleigh, how do you… It seems like if we disagree, I have to dehumanize you. It seems like if we disagree, I have to other you. That’s why I started with, “We affirm the Apostles Creed. We affirm the Baptist faith.” You have to, because people immediately… Sometimes when there’s political disagreement, people choose to other one another or to straw man one another. What is the size of the General Assembly?

Pastor Gailliard:
We have 120 in the House and 50 in the Senate.

Dr. Smith:
When you’re interacting with 170 people, how do you maintain or do you see that the work is undercut by people just not really being fair with others as human beings? And do you see that in that environment?

Pastor Gailliard:
It’s no question. And I think you referenced this earlier on in our conversation about the whole issue of loving our neighbor as ourselves. And you know the scriptures as well as I do. Luke, Chapter 10, Jesus challenges the lawyer. And he got to thinking about that thing and he was like, “Whoa. Hold up. Who exactly is my neighbor now?” And that’s the default position, man, as believers where we want to lower the bar. So instead of doing what Jesus says and really loving my neighbor, who they may be of a different faith. They might be a lesbian. They may be A different race. They may be on welfare. They all my neighbor, It’s not my country club crew. It’s not my Southern Baptist crew, It’s whoever the Lord has me interfacing with. And I think what we’ve done is we’ve lowered that bar and said, “Okay. Let me kind of… Let’s redefine some terms, Jesus, because I’m not really down with loving.” “They can’t be my neighbor.” “I can’t do Black Lives Matter.” “That’s not my neighbor.” “That can’t be my neighbor.” And so, “Can the Confederate flag flying dude be my…” “Does he have to be my neighbor?” “This dude that’s kneeling for the anthem.” “Really? That’s my neighbor?” So the way I view it is, they’re all my neighbor, man.

Pastor Gailliard:
And I’ve learned that God is growing me as a believer. He’s using those individuals to teach me some things. I’m teaching them some things. And so for me, we are damaging our ability to move forward when we don’t properly see the other person as our neighbor. And I think the quicker we do that, the quicker we resurrect the art of disagreement, the art of how do we really negotiate.

Pastor Gailliard:
Kevin, I’m going to tell you what I think is at the heart of all this thing, and I said this initially. I think we got two big issues that I see. I think the first big issue is that we have an identity issue and that we don’t have enough people that have figured out. My identity is not as Democrat. I happen to be on the Democratic ballot, but if that’s going to be… So I get nervous when people identify as a conservative. They identify as a liberal. Because there are lots of issues Biblically that you being conservative ain’t helping you with. And there are lots of issues Biblically you being liberal… So if my launching point, if my theology, if my exegesis, if my interpretation, begins from a lens of conservatism… not from a lens of Christ, but a lens of conservatism… then I am going to ask the question, “Who is my neighbor?” Because I’m a little conservative, and the conservative part of me says, “All of them can’t be my neighbor.” So we have to settle the issue of identity in our politics. That’s the first thing. We can’t identify principally by race or political party or ideology. It has to be Jesus. I really think that is really at the core of this thing. And that’s been my prayer, is helping people understand that.

Pastor Gailliard:
And then, the second big issue for me… and this is largely conservative and evangelical when I say this… I think we have allowed… and when I say “we,” I mean evangelicals… I think we have introduced a fourth person of the Godhead. And I think it is no longer just God… the Father God, the Son of God, the Holy Spirit. I think we also worship the god of our interpretation of the Scriptures because this where I land interpretively. “I worship that.” “I idolized that.” You’ve preached some of the best sermons I’ve ever heard about the issue of idols. And I think we have made idols out of… This is what that means, “If you don’t agree with me in what this means, then we can’t run no more. Never mind the fact that we believe on the inerrancy of scripture, the exclusivity of Jesus Christ, salvation by faith alone. That ain’t enough. You also have to… You got to walk with me interpretively that it means this. And if it doesn’t, I can’t run with you no more.” I think we have introduced a fourth person to Godhead. We got to cut that head off, man.

Dr. Smith:
We got to cut the head off. I tell you what, brother, you and I share a common passion for what you might call motorcycle evangelism. And I don’t think you can effectively share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with someone you dehumanize or someone who you consider to be other. And so, obviously, when I’m sitting at sidewalk or something in, talking to somebody about Jesus Christ. They could have a Confederate flag on their vest. They could be with me or against me politically. They could be black, white, Asian, Hispanic. They could be tons of things that separate us. We never get the criticism that Jesus got. He was criticized for being a friend of sinners and publicans. Nobody says that about U.S. Christianity. And so, if we cannot see sinners and publicans as humans in need of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then we won’t be good and fruitful., Acts 1:8, witnesses.

Dr. Smith:
And as you said… I love the way you phrased that if we don’t think the gospels for anyone, meaning we would go after, in a loving way, any person, even persons that other people aren’t interested… I love the way you say, “If you go after people that other people aren’t interested in, then God will send you other people that other people are interested in.” If we don’t have that kind of anybody about the gospel in our lives, I think we don’t bear fruit. And I think plateauing and declining churches makes a lot of sense in the midst of changing neighborhoods and changing cultural dynamics.

Dr. Smith:
I tell you what, brother, we have friends that I could talk to you forever. I think either I owe you some pancakes, or you owe me some pancakes. As soon as this thing is over, and we’ll get down there off of 64 and get some Godly breakfast. I love you, man, and I thank the Lord for certainly what you doing and place is so special in my heart. Rocky Mount, North Carolina, the pastor of Word Tabernacle. And I thank you for your voice. I’m able to see some things in news articles and social media serving your district there and Raleigh in the House of Delegates for the state of North Carolina. We love you, brother. We pray God’s richest blessings on you.

Dr. Smith:
We’re going to talk some more. We’re in this season of election, but I want to have a whole other kind of focus with you where we just talk about church planting. Fifteen years in, you have much, much, much to share with church planters that are at year one, year one, year three, and even brothers that are sensing a call and they’re still at the core group development stage. So another day, another conversation.

Dr. Smith:
But I want to thank you so much. Pastor James Gailliard at Rocky Mount, North Carolina, Word Tabernacle Church and Delegate and the North Carolina House of Representatives. We thank you so much for your time. God bless you, my brother.

Pastor Gailliard:
And thanks for having me, man. Appreciate your friendship, man. It’s meant a lot to me over these years.

Dr. Smith:
Amen.