#18: Christians in Law

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Hello, I’m Kevin Smith, Executive Director of the Baptist Convention of Maryland, Delaware. Welcome to Peculiar People Podcast where we examine what it means to be a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ in our current times. We base this upon Peter’s exhortation and reminder to us that we are a peculiar people, a holy nation and a chosen generation, that we should show forth the praises of Him who has brought us from darkness into the marvelous light.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And so how do we do that in the day in which we live? And certainly, Jesus commands us in the Sermon on the Mount that we are the salt of the earth and the light of the world. So how do we engage those particular matters of Christian discipleship in our current settings?

Dr. Kevin Smith:
I’m so excited today to have a Texan and a sister in Christ on with us, Sister Kathryn Freeman who is an attorney. And until last year, she was the policy director for the Texas Christian Life Commission. And she left there to begin MDM studies at Truett Seminary at Baylor University. And so, we are excited to engage her on a variety of issues. I think it is so helpful to us to remember as we think about peculiar people, God’s people ought to show forth His glory and all types of venues.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And so, we speak with pastors and people and all local church ministry. But we also speak to followers of Jesus Christ in many areas of life, whether it be politics or the law, engineering, school teachers, whatever career a believer may have or whether one, we also talk about issues of family and communities. So, I’m excited to begin this discussion. We’ve engaged on some other panels and I’m just excited to speak to her today. So, Sister Freeman, welcome. Welcome to Peculiar People. Thank you so much for joining us.

Kathryn Freeman:
Thank you for having me.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Every podcast, we generally start by asking someone just to share their testimony. The thing that makes us peculiar is all of us have been changed by the Lord Jesus Christ and we acknowledge him as Lord and we seek to follow him as disciples. And so, I think it’s always encouraging to hear the testimony of how a brother or a sister became a follower of Jesus Christ.

Kathryn Freeman:
Yeah. So I’m a Texan. I’m originally from the Dallas area, and I became a Christian. I grew up in a Christian household. I learned at our church’s 40th anniversary, my parents were the first couple married by Tony Evans at Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship. They joined when they were straight out of college a long time ago. Yeah. So, I grew up in a Christian home. My parents were very involved in church. My dad was an elder, was in leadership. My mom was in Christian education. So I was just one of those like church kids. If the doors were open, we were there doing something.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so, I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior at vacation Bible school when I was about seven years old. This is probably true of a lot of church kids. I don’t think I really made my faith my own until I was in high school, probably my senior year of high school when it really started to get real. But I was leaving home and going to college and went to like a summer camp and really realizing that like I had lived my life where it was like, okay, this is like my church life and then this is who I am like when I go to school with my friends.

Kathryn Freeman:
And I think the Lord just kind of captured me that summer and was like, I am Lord over your entire life, like you need to decide if you’re going to serve me or if you’re going to be this other person, and rededicated my life to Christ. And then went to Texas A&M for college and majored in English and really had no idea what I wanted to do. I just love to read and write. But through the church, I eventually joined, did a ministry where we kind of ran like a quasi-youth group for kids in kind of the more economically depressed part of the town my college was in.

Kathryn Freeman:
And I mentored a girl for all four years of college. She actually wanted to be the first person in her family to go to college. And as I was just kind of walking through that process with her, SAT tutoring and that kind of thing, I realized that she had like a totally different experience. And I think what kind of crystallized as sort of inequality or inequity of the system is she came from a two-parent household. Her parents are hard workers. She cared a lot about school. She was like an A student. She played basketball, kind of like this kid.

Kathryn Freeman:
In a lot of ways, I think why we clicked so much in our mentorship relationship is she, in a lot of ways, reminded me of my own little sister who is a basketball player and in high school at the time. And just saw that like her experience of trying to go to college was totally different. We did SAT tutoring and was helping her kind of work on her vocabulary for that part of the SAT and we are going through the flashcards and I picked an easy word because I was like, I want to build your confidence. You’ve never done anything like this before, you don’t really know, none of your friends have taken the SAT.

Kathryn Freeman:
And she really struggled with that word. And I tried as much as I could to help her and she just couldn’t get it. And the word was denial. And she was a senior in high school and a stray student. And she just was like, I’ve never seen this word before. And it just broke my heart because I was like, Lord, this is your daughter and you have a heart for her and you have given her all of these gifts. And it’s just by the nature of the zip code that she lives in. But this sort of educational failure is okay. Like, we’re just okay with certain kids giving out an inferior quality education by nature of their zip code.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so that relationship really sparked something in me and a desire to like be involved in policy and justice work as part of my calling and I think how God gifted me in my personality. So, I decided to go to law school pretty much my senior year of college, which is not usually typically how that goes. I was not a kid that like dreamed of being a lawyer. I think when I was like a child, I wanted to be like Oprah, like that was… I didn’t want to be a lawyer at all.

Kathryn Freeman:
But I saw how laws and policy have real practical impacts in people’s lives. And I thought like, Lord, here’s a way for me to serve you. And so, it was partly that relationship and wanting to work in law and policy and also partly not being 100% ready to enter the workforce, let’s be honest, that pushed me towards law school. And I went to law school at the University of Texas which is in Austin which is the capital of Texas.

Kathryn Freeman:
So I interned for a state senator and just fell in love with it and spent 10 years of my life working for various nonprofits. And then the last about five years working for the Texas Baptist Christian Life Commission doing public policy, and helping Christians kind of understand how this is a way to like love your neighbor and pursue God’s justice in public through systems and laws and policies.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Wonderful. Well, before we get into your work as an attorney, I just want to ask you some questions just as a woman in the body of Christ. Can assume that since you left high school and moved away from Dallas, you’ve been involved in different Christian congregations and also you have friends who’ve been involved in different congregations. I saw somewhere on social media, I think you just celebrated your birthday. And so, happy birthday. I think you said something that makes sense.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
In COVID, global pandemic, you said, oh, my goodness, I’ve been so busy and so many things have been happening, I forgot about my birthday. So, I definitely can understand that. But I just found a podcast that you’re involved in and I listened to one episode and I will definitely be listening to others. But I noticed you also have some episodes on singleness. And I just want to kind of ask you, I’m always encouraging pastors and congregational leaders to think about the broad body of the congregation in a society where sometimes Christians feel like the biblical design for family is under assault.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Sometimes we can focus on marriage and male and female and sometimes we do it in ways where we’re always not, I think, as fruitful and congregational care and discipleship with single people, divorcees, and even widows and widowers. And so, I’m just wondering as a young woman who has been involved in different Christian congregations, I don’t know the makeup or anything of those congregations, what have you observed and what insight might you have for pastors and congregational leaders disregarding ministering and considering single brothers and sisters? Obviously, your context is single sisters within a Christian congregation.

Kathryn Freeman:
Yeah. So, I’ve been really fortunate at the church that I was at in Austin, the pastor. So, I ended up going to church there because his daughter and I were law school classmates. But he was just super encouraging and like he and his wife, I think when I first started going to church there, they knew me as their daughter’s friend, but they were super intentional about saying, we see these gifts in you and encouraging me to be in leadership positions in the church and seeking my advice like professional advice.

Kathryn Freeman:
And making me feel like we value your career, we value your expertise, we value that you have this degree as the church was considering doing some bylaw changes and stuff, he sought me out and asked advice. And then, as I have pursued seminary education, has been super encouraging of that and advocates for me. And so, I’ve had a really great experience. I think one of the things that really mattered to me, because I think oftentimes this might be true especially, generally, when you’re kind of in your early mid-20s, you don’t maybe have a full grasp of what your gifts are or your leadership abilities.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so, one thing I always encourage pastors to do is like, if you see something, say something. And so, I think for me, it always made me feel valued and a part of the congregation and that he noticed that I had these gifts and asked me about those gifts. And it wasn’t like, oh, you’re a woman, you should work with the kids. It was like, oh, you’re an attorney, care to help us? We’re talking about changing the bylaws or we’re in the process of redesigning the building of our church, asking me to be on that committee. And so, I would say that would be something that always stood out to me.

Kathryn Freeman:
And then I would just say, he knows my personality and interest and like, yeah, I just have always felt very seen and cared for by him and his wife. And I will say also, too, it’s the kind of thing when you’re like a single person, sometimes when you go to church, you’re like sitting by yourself and you think, if I didn’t come, would anybody notice? And as long as I’ve been a member of that church, if I missed too many Sundays because I was traveling for work, I always got a text message from his wife or someone else at the church that was like, hey, we missed you, we missed seeing you. How are things going at work, how’s your family? We’re just checking in on you.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so, that would be my kind of encouragement and advice. And from friends, maybe I’ve had different experiences. I think those are kind of the big things of feeling like because you’re single, you’re like a JV Christian, like maybe you don’t have the same gifts or you can’t be in leadership. Or I think particularly if you’re a woman, the only thing you’re gifted to do is to work in children’s ministry. And this is not to denigrate children’s ministry, I actually am a youth person like I love youth ministry and have volunteered in the youth ministry in my church for years. But I think that that’s not every woman’s calling or giftedness.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so, to only be kind of shoved towards that ministry, it’s very disheartening. And so, I would say that has been my experience and my sort of general encouragement to pastors and how they think about ministry to single women.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Wonderful! That’s encouraging. Probably from high school to my middle 20s, oh, my goodness, I hate it being a single Christian in the church. That’s probably I was in the choir and then I was a minister. And so, my goodness, everybody wants you to meet their granddaughter or their daughter. And so, it wasn’t like, I’m not being ministered to. It was just like the hookup culture in a historic black church. I was like, oh, my God-

Kathryn Freeman:
The single’s ministry, but I think I’ve come to a place and maybe it’s like just because I’m older now that I view that as an expression of love and feeling like, of course, you want to meet my cousin’s son and like talk to this perfect stranger, because you’re a wonderful… I think he might be wonderful. Maybe you’ll work together. So, I kind of chuckle, makes me laugh now. But I definitely in my mid-20s found it very annoying.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Yes. Oh, wonderful. Well, I wanted to laugh a little bit but I do want to talk to you about some serious matters and I think some heavy matters. Doing the midst of our conversation, we’re in the midst of a global pandemic. But we’re also in the midst of some tensions and divisions in our country being expressed or manifesting because of several incidences that have been in the news lately. One in Georgia with a young black man jogging and basically vigilantes approaching him and eventually murdering him. One involving a no-knock warrant situation and place. I told you, I raised my kids and I love dearly. Jefferson County, Kentucky, Louisville, Kentucky.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And then I think the catalyzing issue which led to peaceful protests and other such things would be George Floyd and the Minneapolis police and just the extensive, almost nine-minute video of him actually dying. And I think that triggered a lot of, number one, discussions about race in America. Number two, organized thoughtful protests. Number three, other people jumping in to some of these matters who had other agendas and other things, and sometimes invoking violence or rioting. And so I think a lot of people are thinking about issues of race in America presently and in America’s history.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Again, you and I have been on panels where we discussed some things and then also in my role of serving more than 500 churches here in Maryland, Delaware, I’m often in congregations, either talking to full congregations or talking to congregational leaders or conversations with pastors about some of these things. Ephesians 4:3 says, we are endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, and we ought to seek to be one as Jesus prayed in John 17. Then also in Romans 12, we ought to seek to rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep, and bear one another’s burdens as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And so, I kind of want to ask you some questions as a black woman who is a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. But before I do that, I want to ask you a question just as an attorney. I was able to listen to, I think, it was can we live or can I live addressing some of the recent matters and particularly it was Breonna Taylor and the situation in Louisville, Kentucky. This is a layman asking a lawyer a question. The City Council there in Louisville, Kentucky, did move to eliminate no-knock warrants. And I think there are also groups pushing the state to kind of do something that statewide in the Commonwealth of Kentucky.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
But for a layman who doesn’t understand the law, other than saying, hey, no-knock warrants are unhelpful thing and they can have bad consequences, what else can happen because sometimes I hear people say, well, the officers need to be arrested or something else needs to happen. And I’m asking you as a lawyer, if the no-knock warrants were legal at the time this thing occurred, you can’t retroactively charge someone with something that they happen under a law that was in existence when they actually did that. I’m just kind of asking you as a lawyer.

Kathryn Freeman:
Breonna Taylor’s case is like super complicated, I think, for some of the reasons that you articulated. And I think that’s hard for people to hear. I mean, I personally would like to see the officers fired. I do think her case, it’s a little bit harder to criminally charge the officers involved. I mean, one thing that I have heard and read is that their use of the no-knock warrant might have been illegal even though the warrant itself was legal, that they relied on false information in obtaining the warrant, that they kind of misled the judge who signed off on it.

Kathryn Freeman:
So there might be something there related to you officer misconduct or filing untruthful documents with the court. These things are obviously and rightly very emotional. The idea that you could be sleeping in your home in the middle of the night, that your loved one could be trying to protect you, a licensed legal gun owner, and it lead to your death just like viscerally is like very upsetting. And, I think, also two bullets went into neighbor’s apartment. So, definitely there was some recklessness, I think, on the part of the officers, even with the legality at the time of no-knock warrants.

Kathryn Freeman:
So, I say all that to say that I do think that there are consequences that those officers can face, whether it’s termination, whether it’s related to… if it is indeed true that they misled the judge in obtaining the warrant, that there’s official misconduct, legal things that they can be charged within criminal courts related to that. But I do think that it’s hard. And I think that that thing is like with her, Breonna Taylor’s case and then you talk about Sandra Bland and Korryn Gaines and Kathryn Johnston, it’s like the thing of like it’s a compounding trauma and there never seems to be any consequences.

Kathryn Freeman:
And I think, if there was a kind of culture of holding officers, when these types of things happen, accountable in some way, I do think the culture African Americans, the larger society could have more space for like a nuance conversation, like a full investigation. But I think when it just seems like often, just in my lifetime, I can’t imagine what it’s like for people of previous generations you’ve endured way more instances of this, that there’s never any consequence. And so, just the idea of demanding some sort of consequence even if you’re not intricately familiar with the ins and outs of the laws.

Kathryn Freeman:
It’s like an act in reclaiming dignity of saying like, you cannot continue to do this without consequence. So, I do think that there are consequences, aside from the fact that they have now banned no-knock warrants, that not necessarily related to whether or not no-knock warrants were legal or not legal at the time. There are some other factors in that case that could lead to serious consequences for those officers.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Well, I think brothers and sisters in Christ who are examining things are helped, at least when they hear a sister in Christ who is an attorney say, look, some of these matters are complicated because I think with some of the political divisions in our culture with the 24-hour news cycle, sometimes we can get simplistic narratives for what I think complicated situations. And so that’s tremendously helpful.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Let me ask you another question as an attorney on a different subject. When you think of unrighteousness, when you think of sin, when you think of injustice, whether we’re speaking of something involving a citizen and police or whether we just think of something involving citizens. I mean, the story in Georgia was between two citizens. Certainly years ago, Trayvon Martin was between two citizens. So everything of what I think is sometimes racial conflict or prejudice or injustice doesn’t involve necessarily police and citizens.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
But I do find regardless of the players involved, it seems like often the weakest link, I mean, like if somebody said to me like, in America, regarding issues of righteousness, justice, a whole lot of stuff, who do you think is the weakest link? And I always come back to like local district attorneys. That seems like the weakest link in all of American government. I remember in Chicago, there was a cover-up and I remember a strong movement to replace the district attorney, and that was successful. So three things, as an attorney, engage my idea that that’s the weakest link in the American justice system period, local district attorneys.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Secondly, you went to a very prominent, The University of Texas Law School, is that role even seen as respected by law school students? And thirdly, there’s many jurisdictions that have nonpartisan judicial elections. And it seems like some of the breakdown has to be because too many district attorneys are like political hacks versus people who love the law and love justice. And so, just engage that if you would as an attorney and as someone who values justice.

Kathryn Freeman:
Yeah. I mean, I say personally, if you care about criminal justice reform, the single biggest actor who has the most control of how people are charged, what they’re sentenced with, whether or not someone is charged, who gets to go to diversion, who has to go to state prison, is the district attorney.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so, I think if you say you care about justice reform and you are not actively voting for involved in district attorney races in your community, county attorney, state attorney, I think it’s what it is in Illinois, then to me I think you really don’t care about criminal justice reform or you don’t understand, so I’m going to explain it to you. And so, it’s an elected position. They have a lot of discretion, like wide, wide wide berth. And so-

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And is unilateral discretion, right?

Kathryn Freeman:
Yes, unilateral discretion. And so, even if we go back to the example of like law enforcement where there are instances of like police brutality, who decides what to charge officers with if the officers are going to be charged, what to take to a grand jury, what evidence is presented to the grand jury, what evidence is presented at trial, is all decided by the district attorney. So if you’ve ever thought, I don’t know why they view it this way or why didn’t they say that, it really is a function of that office.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so, I think when you have someone who is corrupt or you have, when I was with the Christian Life Commission, we did a lot of criminal justice reform. And one of the things that I always talk about is like, if you hear your district attorney espousing this like tough on crime on a hammer-type person, that rhetoric is actually not helpful because it’s fear based, it’s fearmongering, and it leads less to just outcomes. And it’s more about how many people can I lock up? And so I think you’re less incentivized to pursue justice and like restoration and wholeness for your community when you’re reliant on that sort of tough-on-crime rhetoric.

Kathryn Freeman:
I think as far as like how it’s viewed when the larger legal community, I mean, it’s tough to say, I will say at my experience with top law schools is because quite a few lawyers go to law school to get rich and to be big corporate attorneys or big trial lawyers where they make a lot of money and drive nice cars and own yachts. And a district attorney job, I mean, for all of this, it’s still a government job. It’s still public service. So you’re not-

Dr. Kevin Smith:
You’re not bawling.

Kathryn Freeman:
You’re not bawling. And so, I think it is one of those things where sometimes it’s like you’re not usually getting the best and brightest of the legal community. But I do think if you are someone who is a lawyer or called to law and feel that way and really are passionate about justice and justice reform, I do think that it’s important for Christian lawyers to run for those positions. So, I think local Das, it’s an elected position. In Texas, it’s Republican and Democrat. There are some states that have nonpartisan judicial elections. I am very envious of that.

Kathryn Freeman:
Because I do think that it becomes less about the law and it’s more about like kind of partisan talking points like what does your party think about X, Y and Z? And I think it’s hard because if you’re in a state where they straight-ticket voting, you might not be tempted to really go through and parse out all the different positions on things, because I think maybe people assume like, oh, a Democrat would be more liberal on criminal justice and a Republican would be more tough. And that’s not always the case. It doesn’t always break down that way.

Kathryn Freeman:
And it’s time-consuming, like when you go into the ballot and it’s like 150 things until I get through, some people are just tempted to just check whatever partisan box they are. And so, the idea of looking up judicial websites and like finding out what is the American Bar Association rating or the State Bar Association rating of X, Y and Z candidate does take more work. But I think ultimately, we would have a more just justice system if we got rid of partisanship and judicial races. Yes, I agree with them.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Wonderful. I would say that there’s not a preponderance female voices out there. Confession of faith addresses the church and pastoral office and our understandings of that in light of 1 Timothy 3. But nonetheless, in the last several years, number one, because of some horrible things that came out in the Houston Chronicle’s article regarding some things of sexual assault and sin and things that were subject to public exposure. I thank the Lord because the scripture says that at some point, in your foolishness, God. And Ezekiel, it says I’ll pull up your skirt and expose your nakedness. You can only have sin lingering under the midst for so long before God exposes stuff.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
But nonetheless, I just think in general, in a lot of settings, you don’t get to hear a lot of voices and words from sisters. And then also even a level further, I don’t think you get to hear a lot of words from black sisters in some of these contexts. And so, I know sometimes people hear certain terms and they are perhaps not terms that they live with or not terms they engage a lot. And one thing I always think about attorneys is I think you all are well spoken. And so, you all can do some things because you’re used to explaining things to judges.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So, what do you mean when you use terms like representation and how would you define racism? Because, one thing, people say there’s racial divisions in our country and racial tensions. A lot of times, I find people talking past each other because they don’t even have like a basic understanding of what they mean when they’re using these terms. And so, those are two terms I hear sometimes people talking about representation and all that. And I am really curious about your definition because I just tell people I’m not a good person to ask some of these things because I grew up in Washington, DC when it was called chocolate city.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And so, representation is like far off my map because I grew up with like black mayors and black business owners. I was in Prince George’s County which is a home of the largest black middle class in America. And so, when you grow up in all that chocolate, you don’t even have a concept of representation. Because, I mean, your life is representation. I went to HBCU. But in general, when people hear that term representation, maybe you want to address that. Secondly, may you want to first address how do you define the term racism?

Kathryn Freeman:
So I will say, I think racism is bias or prejudice compounded with power. So like some ability to harm or diminish because of someone’s race or ethnicity. I will say that I do think, because you always get in this conversation about reverse racism. And while I don’t often think that people of color are racist in American society, that is in America, there are other countries where people of color are in power and are racist towards other people or minorities in those countries. And I also think that it is possible for people of color in America to be biased or prejudiced against people of different skin color which is treating people differently because they have a different racial, ethnic background.

Kathryn Freeman:
But I also think when we’re talking about racism, we’re also talking about a system, a systemic issue. So, because just using criminal justice system as an example, it didn’t kind of appear out of nowhere, right, like this system was created by individuals. And at the time it was created, there’s documented evidence in a number of states, particularly in the south, that laws and policies were created with the intent to maybe harm or impede the progress of African Americans.

Kathryn Freeman:
And then because over time we’ve done nothing about that, there are individuals in the system that are not racist or not played by those same biased tendencies because nothing has been done about the foundation. The sin has continued to grow and kind of infect the system. And I think of like, I’m not going to remember exactly where it is but it talks about powers and principalities and like helping people understand that if you can believe that an individual can commit sin.

Kathryn Freeman:
But then you have this scriptural example of powers and principalities and ideologies, this idea that sin is much bigger than sort of our sort of own personal interactions with the devil, why wouldn’t the devil want to get in and infect whole systems and ideologies and ways which are keeping people in bondage. And so, I always think it’s important when you talk about racism to acknowledge it’s both individual and it is also systemic.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And I think certainly as Christians, we want to acknowledge that that initial thrust that even leads you to some individual action or for you to participate in some structural action pushes against the image of God and another man or woman. Genesis 1:27, God created all humanity, male and female in his image and his likeness.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And so, one particular manifestation in the history of the United States has been prejudice and discrimination based upon the social construct of race. But as you well note it, if we look globally, we’ll find other ways where people have been able to express bias or prejudice against other people and rightly have the authority to address some of those things.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So byproduct of the reality of racism in our culture, in our society, has been effects of who speaks, effects of who tells stories, effects of how stories and narratives are told. And so, when you yourself or friends that you have or other people kind of speak of representation, The Baptist Convention of Maryland/Delaware, were here. We’re one of the more ethnolinguistically diverse state conventions and Southern Baptist life, black, white, Asian, Hispanic, tons of languages, probably 40 plus languages spoken on a Sunday in our congregation.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And so, many people aren’t in the habit of using language like representation. And so, when you say that, what are you implying or getting at with that word?

Kathryn Freeman:
Yeah. I mean, I think it goes back to this idea that you brought up, right? It’s like we’re all created in the image of God. And I think God’s intention from humanity, from the beginning, even in the day of Pentecost, right, there’s every tribe. And then we get to, also in Revelations, this idea that every tribe and tongue and language will be represented at the cross, and is a reflection of God’s image, and that God was intentional in how he created each of us with our ethnic differences.

Kathryn Freeman:
When people talk about representation, I think what they’re speaking of is, I’ll say it like this, for you to tell me that I’m created in the image of God and I’m valuable to the body of Christ but then I never see people like me, who look like me and speaking positions and positions of leadership, I never hear songs that feel familiar to my culture. We never read Bible studies or books by people who look like me. I begin to wonder if really you do you believe that I’m created in the image of God.

Kathryn Freeman:
If you do believe that I have something valuable to create or contribute to the body of Christ, because everywhere I look within this particular church or denomination or even society as a whole, there’s only one standard ever represented or there’s only one face that’s ever seen.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so, particularly I think within the body of Christ when we’re talking about representation, we are asking like we want to live out that truth that God does have a plan in a heart for all of humanity and creation, that all of us are valuable and created in his image, that there’s unique giftedness and callings on all of us. And so we want a church that celebrates and recognizes that in worship, in Bible study, in conferences, and just the whole of church life, like we want to feel the truth of Scripture.

Kathryn Freeman:
And I think regardless of whether there’s representation or not, I mean, that doesn’t make the scripture any less true. I think the experience often times is like from fellow believers. You feel like, oh, I’m a hand and because I only ever see heads getting all the attention, a hand is not a valuable part of the body. And Paul says, no, like we need each other, there’s value, you have something different to offer. And so, I think when people are talking about representation, they’re like, we just want to see the church actually live out the truth of the gospel and that we are all different.

Kathryn Freeman:
I think going back to something you said earlier about unity, right? Something that Pastor Evans always says that I love is unity doesn’t mean uniformity. We don’t all have to be the same. We don’t all have to think the same. We don’t all have the same experiences. But because of the central truth of I’m a sinner, I needed a Savior. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. And now, I’m empowered by the Holy Spirit to live out and do gospel ministry. That is the source of our unity, but we don’t all have to be the same. But then I think also too Paul speaks to because you’re not the same, we need all of you to fully live out the great commission and the great commandment.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Amen. Amen. I certainly appreciate, as you mentioned, the members of the one body here, 1 Corinthians 12 reference there. I refer to that a lot because I do think too many brothers and sisters misconstrue unity for hegemony or uniformity or something other than what it is pictured as in the New Testament. Paul says in Galatians, we are one in Christ whether male or female, whether at the top of the economic scale or the bottom, whether different ethnicities, we are one in Christ. And so, that’s certainly very helpful reference.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And even further to your point regarding the hand and the head and all those things, Paul encourages the body of Corinthians who were divided to make sure that you give appropriate honor to those lesser noticed parts. So as a pastor, I was always mindful of man, thank the Lord, I want you deacons and trustees and choir members and all you ushers and all you people that everybody sees, I want to make sure we give the Lord praise, for the parking lot ministry out there, that I don’t see, and the children’s workers that are down in the basement without children, and things that you don’t necessarily notice.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And so, I think, certainly, 1 Corinthians 12 encourages us along those lines. I failed to ask you earlier in your studies in law school, what was your particular focus if you had a particular focus?

Kathryn Freeman:
So like UT doesn’t really do that. But my area of interest is constitutional law. And I took a lot of classes related to constitution and government statutes and stuff.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
All right. I’ll be humble as I talk about the First Amendment because I’m in the presence of a constitutional lawyer. So here’s a serious question. I mentioned earlier, the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, we are the salt of the earth and we are the light of the world. You’ve engaged federal issues and politics and legislation. You’ve engaged the state house there in Texas. And I think earlier or no, somewhere else, I’ve heard you described Austin as a blue dot in a red state. So you understand the interaction between both sides of the aisle.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And I come to this question kind of as independent by the three-decade independent, not carrying water for anybody but we have kind of this two-party system. And I’m just wondering, regarding Christian ethics and regarding a Christian witness, in your experience, have you noticed, and I’m asking this because many times, again, narratives, I think, are too often painted by the 24-hour news cycle and people with political agendas.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And so, I just want to ask you as a sister in Christ, what’s your assessment of Christians who are involved in the political process, whether they are federal elected officio, a state elected official, whether they are government appointee, whether they’re working in an executive office role or legislative office role. As someone who grew up in the church, as someone who certainly grew up in a fine church and has an expectation of what a Christian looks like in all different kinds of arenas, what has been your assessment of Christians that you’ve observed in Texas and nationally and political engagement?

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And I want to ask a question just saying, I have a negative outlook because it seems like they get sucked up in the carnality of it more than they are sought like witnesses. But I am saying that as an outsider. I mean, I worked for a few years as a senate staffer back when I was in my 20s but other than that, I was just kind of curious about your assessment.

Kathryn Freeman:
My assessment is that Christians who enter politics, I do think that it is important. I think that there’s sort of this misperception that there’s a lot of like darkness and dishonesty. And this isn’t to say that that’s not a part of it. But I do think that there’s a temptation to get caught up in partisanship where your identity is Republican or Democrat first and then Christian as opposed to like, yes, I’m affiliated with a party but it’s a tool to achieve this means. It’s not my whole identity.

Kathryn Freeman:
So, I won’t say that I haven’t been disappointed by Christians I’ve encountered in the political arena. But I will say, I do find on the whole, at least my experience in Austin and a little bit in DC, is like oftentimes there are congressional Bible studies or capital Bible studies where legislators of different partisan backgrounds and even denominational backgrounds will meet early in the morning to pray and have Bible study with one another. But it sometimes doesn’t come across on TV but there can be a level of collegiality among lawmakers that doesn’t translate. And I think that’s because of the 24-hour news cycle and partisanship and just wanting to score points for your side at all costs.

Kathryn Freeman:
But I will say I’ve had like a number of my experiences thoughtful conversations. One story I’d love to tell is we were having a little bit of an issue around a religious liberty issue. And the challenge was actually with the republican office. They were wanting to change some terms and some statutes in a way that we felt like would have the opposite effect of their intention. So what if restricted religious liberty rather than I think what they were trying to do was expand. But we were the only religious group that came in and we’re telling them that, hey, you’re misreading this, you’re making a mistake.

Kathryn Freeman:
Every other group was kind of like, oh, yeah, this is great, you’re doing a great job. And so for me, it was like a little intimidating to be like, well, to kind of go out on an island and say, I don’t think this is your intention, I think you’re doing this wrong. And my boss at the time, before we’re going into meeting, we’re strategizing. And I’m like, okay, you’re going to be good cop and I’ll be a bad cop, like coming with lawyer stuff and statute.

Kathryn Freeman:
And we like go into the office and we sit down. And before we get even started the conversation, my boss is like, hey, before we start this meeting, can we pray for you? And he was like, yeah, I would love that. I’m having a really hard day. And so we were like, oh, well, is there something specific that we can pray for? And it turns out, he and his wife had just had a baby and their son wasn’t sleeping at night and he was working these ridiculously long hours.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so, his wife was having to deal with this on her own and she was really stressed. And they were just learning how to be new parents. And he just felt really overwhelmed by his work at the Capitol and his responsibilities as a father and as a husband. And we prayed for him. And we really didn’t end up getting super into the legalities of the law. I mean, I think I left him with a sheet of paper that I’d like typed up and explained the issues.

Kathryn Freeman:
And three days later, he called back and was like, we’re going to do what you want to do. We realized you’re right. Even though you’re the only person saying this, I think you’re right. And in my mind, that totally was the work of the Holy Spirit because we didn’t talk about why we didn’t really get into why I thought he was misreading the law. But I tell that story to say that when we say Jesus is Lord, we mean Lord of everything, everywhere and every place and every person.

Kathryn Freeman:
And I also will say, don’t ever diminish power of prayer even for Congress, which is to say that you should be praying for your elected officials. I think the tendency is to get cynical. And as one of my favorite civil rights leaders, Bryan Stevenson says is like, hopelessness is the enemy of justice. So like we, as Christians, as people of hope, really have to fight cynicism.

Kathryn Freeman:
And I think, even when it comes to politics, even when it feels like it’s frustrating and nothing is working. I mean, I think that that should be an impetus for us to go harder in our prayer and reaching out to elected officials and say, hey, I noticed you’re a member of First Baptist so and so. I just want you to know that my church, we’re praying for you. Do you have any specific prayer requests that we can be praying through? It’s a way to build relationship and human connection.

Kathryn Freeman:
But, honestly, as someone who spent 10 years doing this, it is a really hard job. You are often away from your family for a long time. You’re expected to have positions on issues you may have never even thought of, like water districts or all kinds of things that just as like, hey, I wanted to be a senator because I care about taxes. And now you’re asking me about refugee resettlement. I’m like, I don’t know. And so, I think recognizing it is challenging and it is frustrating.

Kathryn Freeman:
But I would just say, when you feel those things and you feel like, hey, I know that you’re a Christian or you’ve expressed this and it seems like you’re getting really caught up in partisanship, that that is an opportunity to pray. And I will just say, that was like one example. But I have lots of stories about how prayer has totally turned meetings around, how attitudes around, even for people who are not religious. Nobody ever says no to prayer. Very rarely, even in the most liberal democratic office, I’ve had someone say, no, don’t pray for me. So, I don’t know if that really answered your question but that would be my encouragement to believers.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Good. Let me ask you, how have you thought about belligerents. And as a Christian, how do you think through who I will align myself with, who I will join with together on collaboration about a particular issue or particular policy or particular matter? And I imagine certainly in your role with the Christian life commission, they were sometimes tight issues, but then other times perhaps broad issues. And what kind of thoughts did you give, if any, towards collaboration and cobelligerents and who you would and would not partner with?

Kathryn Freeman:
Yeah. We did a lot of coalition work and it was determined by issue and it was like whether our policy goals aligned on this particular issue. And I will say, for example, we did a lot of work on criminal justice reform and we were a part of a coalition that included the ACLU that included a bunch of Republican, right, like libertarian leaning groups. And I think the NAACP was in the coalition. And we didn’t agree on anything. I mean, even in the meetings, I was like, guys, we can only talk about criminal justice reform. We don’t talk about anything else on your legislative agenda or we will be derailed from our mission of reforming the criminal justice system.

Kathryn Freeman:
And the Catholic Conference, there were a number of other religious organizations that participated as well. And I think one of the things that we’ve kind of just thought through is, on this particular issue, our goal is this, what is the most effective way to do that? There were organizations that even if our interests align, we wouldn’t necessarily partner with. I mean, we might be testifying in favor of the same bill but we weren’t necessarily working together.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so, I think one of the things I always think through and I always tell Christians about this is, I think just the nature of being human, you’re not going to agree with anyone 100% of the time. I think the second thing is in politics when you talk about partisanship, neither party is 100% aligned with scripture. And so, we might have works with Democrats around payday lending reform because we’re concerned about the poor and we find payday loans to be exploitative. But religious liberty and prolife issues, maybe our champion offices were Republican.

Kathryn Freeman:
So I think to be effective, depending on the issue, you’re going to have to work with people that maybe you don’t align with in any other way but maybe on that particular issue. And I think also too like the guys from the ACLU ever asked something about religious liberty, I would just tell them, this is the position of our organization, that’s how we came to that, with the hopes of, I mean, it was very rarely effective but a girl’s got to try.

Kathryn Freeman:
But with the idea of like, if we can have a conversation about this, because I will say this, I wish that more Christians could engage in these kinds of conversations with the idea that the person I’m talking to is created in the image of God and also that they are maybe doing the best they can or they think this is the right way. And so, I’m not trying to hammer, I don’t think this person is inherently evil. I’m not trying to destroy them or diminish them or embarrass them in any way.

Kathryn Freeman:
For me, it’s like, this is about a policy outcome, something that is going to make life better for the poor and the more marginalized or the vulnerable in some meaningful way. And so, can I have a conversation that recognizes your dignity or who you are. Even if you don’t recognize God as your Creator, I know he’s your Creator. And so, I want to treat you that way with respect and kindness and civility. And I wish that that would be more part of our culture and how we talk about politics and political engagement.

Kathryn Freeman:
And I was like, this is one way that Christians can distinguish themselves as being people of integrity, of being people of humility and kindness and goodwill. And I think that’s like deeply biblical. We know, Jeremiah talks about seeking the welfare of the city and people seeing that. But even Paul’s and Peter’s encouragement to follow and submit to government, it is about winning people over to Christ, so that they see your goodness and ask you why are you different or how do you live your life in this particular way?

Kathryn Freeman:
So, I mean, we work across the aisle, we work to kind of a nonpartisan way. Criminal justice reform was the only issue we ever our interests align with ACLU. But I think it was also a product of prayer and discernment and having clear boundaries. These are the things we agree on and these are the policy outcomes, the specific bills that we’re working on together and this is our position on this issue, and doing that for the glory of God. And then you do your other things and we’ll do our other things. And we’ll be kind and civil because, for me, you’re created in the image of God and you’re doing the best you can, and so I think that was our philosophy.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Wonderful. I tell you what, I think we’ve got to really think about a salt, light witness, and certainly, are we any type of distinct influence for the Lord Jesus Christ in our setting, whether it’s the United States or whether it’s South America, Europe, or wherever, a Christ-follower finds himself or herself?

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Last question, I got tickled. I was looking at the Texas Christian Life Commission website, and it’s very Baptist because it says, we speak to Baptist, not for Baptist. Yup, yup, you got to make that clear. But you also spoke about seeking to have a witness that is influenced by the Great Commission and the great commandment. If there’s anything that seems to be lacking from my assessment and much of Bible believing American Christianity, it’s a kind of an understanding of Matthew 22 and 40.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Jesus says on these two commandments, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And the second is like unto it, love your neighbors as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. And it seems a lot of Christians think a lot about the vertical and doxological relationships between themselves and the true and living God who has revealed Himself to us in the Lord Jesus Christ. But not perhaps give as much concern and priority and weight to the horizontal relationship of love for neighbor.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And sadly, sometimes even John 13, relationship of love just within the body of Christ for brothers and sisters in Christ. And so, I’m just wondering, as one who has spent her time in the political arena in the legal arena as one who’s grown up in the church and has seen brothers and sisters in Christ your whole life, how would you exhort Christians to consider their witness in a broader way than just making sure I share the gospel with someone or just making sure my neighbors see me going to corporate worship every week and honoring the Lord Jesus Christ in my life like that?

Dr. Kevin Smith:
What would you say about the whole issue of loving one’s neighbor? And how that has implications for our engagement in broader society, and sometimes that involves politics?

Kathryn Freeman:
Yeah. So, I’ll try not to get on my soapbox too much about this. But when you consider the entire witness of Scripture, God cares deeply about how we treat each other. I mean, Amos, Malachai, I mean, the condemnation, Jeremiah, like you say peace where there is no peace, you are harming the poor, you’re being biased in your judgments.

Kathryn Freeman:
The issue of Malachai is like men were divorcing their wives for financial benefit and status within this country. And so, because of that, these prophets were saying, The Lord is judging you, you’re still offering sacrifices and you’re still coming to church on Sunday, you’re still saying Yahweh is Lord but you don’t live your life like Yahweh is Lord, because of how you’re treating your neighbor, because of how you’re treating the poor, because of how you’re treating the widow and the foreigner and the marginalized.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so, I think you see that throughout the Old Testament that God cares deeply, deeply, deeply, so much that he had sent them into exile because they had neglected his laws around how you treat people in the community of Israel, and then those without. And then I think in Scripture, I took a New Testament sort of survey class last semester, and it was interesting to me how much time Paul and Peter spend giving instruction of how to live together in this new community, right?

Kathryn Freeman:
Okay, some of you have a Jewish background, some of you are Hellenistic. And it’s creating challenges because you have a different culture and you’re bringing that into the church. How do we come together as one body, Romans and Galatians, and it’s just all over the New Testament. It matters how we live in a community. And I would say, I think Paul and Peter and Jesus. He preached the gospel but he didn’t only preach the gospel, when he encountered people that were sick, or lame or blind, he met their felt need, and also their spiritual needs.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so I think that Christians, who maybe think that as long as my personal relationship is right with God, then I can treat people around me any kind of way. And it doesn’t matter whether I’m a fair employer or I treat my workers with dignity and pay a fair wage that God doesn’t care about that. I mean, I will just say as the old folks in the church and others would say. I mean, God is not mocked. And so like there will be consequences for that. And so I think politics is like one way to show love of neighbor. And I think not everybody is called to advocacy. And I think that that is fine, like if God has called you to love your neighbor in a very specific way.

Kathryn Freeman:
Every community is different and the needs are different. But I would say that if you that you can be a Christian and not care about what’s happening in society or because it doesn’t affect you personally but that’s a godly response to injustice or unrighteousness or sin, I would say the entire council of scripture says, that’s wrong.

Kathryn Freeman:
And so, I would just say, my encouragement would be to like pick an Old Testament prophet, Jeremiah, Amos are two of my favorites, and just read Scripture. I mean, the big thing of like growing up in a Bible Church is like, I am a person of the book. And so, I’m going to live my life according to the Scripture. And I think God is really serious about justice. It’s a part of his character. And I think it’s a part of what it means to be a disciple or follower of him.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Yes. And I just thought about that when you mentioned Bible Church. You grew up in Oak Cliff and you went to Baylor instead of DTS, that is hurtful. No, I’m just making a joke.

Kathryn Freeman:
But it’s okay. I’d take your point but I feel okay because Pastor Evans did send his younger son to Baylor to play football.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
All right. All right. So let me close on a personal question. You’ve been an attorney in the state capitol, you’ve worked on a variety of things. You grew up in the Dallas Metroplex, you then lived in the state capitol and went to law school in the state capitol. So how’s it been being a full-time student again and how’s it been? You go from Dallas to the state capitol and then you live with three people, you and Chip and Joanna and Waco. I mean, what is that like?

Kathryn Freeman:
I don’t know, we’re going to see. It has been challenging. I have chosen intentionally to see this as a continuation of my calling and not like a detour or something that is meaningless. Like I really feel called to seminary in Waco in particular in Baylor for this season. I don’t know why. And it’s definitely a challenge. As someone who enjoys going out to variety of restaurants and having access to arts and culture and cool concerts to like live in this town like Waco. I take solace in the fact that Waco is only an hour and a half from Dallas. So if I’m just really struggling, I can drive into the city and see my family.

Kathryn Freeman:
But, yeah, I think I’ve taken the approaches like I feel really called to this place in this time. And I can’t see all the things that God is doing like what he’s weaving and why he called me to this in the season but I’m choosing obedience even at my own sometimes discomfort. I mean, I think it’s hard to go from, especially it’s like a mid-ish career person, like a salary and benefits to like the student life. But I want to be faithful. And I think that’s been the biggest desire as I’ve matured and grown in my faith. It’s like, Lord, I just want to make it to the finish line. I just want to hear, well done.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Amen.

Kathryn Freeman:
So many people who I started with haven’t finished. And so, more than the financial security, I want to be faithful. And so, that is why I’m here and I’m having a good attitude about it.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Wonderful. Well, I hope you get to enjoy some good, obviously, not this year with coronavirus, but I hope you get to enjoy some good college football and college basketball, men’s and women’s. Baylor has some outstanding sports. And I know you said you are a reader, but sometimes just to get outside and get some fresh air. There’s plenty to engage at Baylor even within that context. And while you’re there, take advantage of Chip and Joanna and so when you move somewhere else, you know how you want to layout your house and where you want to live.

Kathryn Freeman:
Exactly. They have remodeled this entire town. It’s not your grandparent’s Waco.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Yes. Oh, my goodness. Well, Sister Kathryn Freeman, attorney, sister in Christ, seminary student, Texan, not just a regular Texan, a Texas A&M Texan, child of Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship, a church I value so much. Thank you so much for joining us on Peculiar People.

Kathryn Freeman:
Thank you for having me.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
We pray that you would have a good and fruitful year. God bless you.

Kathryn Freeman:
Thank you.